8 ms·

I've practiced mindfulness and meditation for many years until I found "The Tao of Pooh", which, if you're not familiar, outlines the basic tenets of taoism. It

I've practiced mindfulness and meditation for many years until I found "The Tao of Pooh", which, if you're not familiar, outlines the basic tenets of taoism. It has completely changed me and made me feel whole for the first time in my life, and I don't have to practice anything to achieve it. Early on in my life I was drawn in by proverbs and other pieces of wisdom, in an attempt to fill in the gaps of what I thought was missing, to fix myself and make me feel whole. Then mindfulness presented itself to me and it gave me a feeling that everything just worked - it was simple and applied to everything; but I couldn't hold onto it. I wanted to just be, and be ok. Non-dual mindfulness felt like the answer to that problem, but while it sounded right in theory, I still felt that it was something I had to achieve or maintain. When I read The Tao of Pooh, everything clicked for me. I could be myself without trying. My whole life has become open-ended. It also helped me to understand something that always nagged at me - how could some people appear to be mindful from birth, without having read anything about mindfulness? - People who seemed to always grow and learn in a way that upends their nature continually (nature vs. nurture?), while I felt that there was always something I was missing. The answer(for me) was 2 things -an ability to see myself as whole, despite the capacity for personal growth; -and complete/lazy faith in my intuition. (Intuition being this kind of thing that everyone is born with - and so in my view, the only thing that could transcend the differences between every living being. The differences in access to teachings, wisdom, philosophies, religion, culture, etc.) I'm curious if anyone here has felt similar with meditation/mindfulness, or has had experience with both that and taoism and what that journey was like for you.

rollinDyno 3y ago
What reasons do you have to trust your intuition? Why do you happen to have a certain intuition and why is it likely to give you the right answers?
lootsauce 3y ago
I picked up the Tao Te Ching in middle school and would reread it frequently. The personal insights would evolve as I grew up and faced different issues in my life. I found an abiding peace in those personal insights and they have held with me since. One of those insights is something like having instead of seeking as an identity. I don’t feel that I want to seek to find myself or some great answer, it’s already there, I already have it. YMMV bits a wonderful ancient text. I recommend the S. Mitchel translation. I could never get into the sitting and breathing kind of meditation, but I do find different times I am able to practice very meditative activities such as walking in the woods, aimless wandering, puttering about with no intention just taking in the world. I used to do zen inspired landscape photography and that whole process felt very meditative to me.
dorchadas 3y ago
Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. As van Norden says in the chapter on the Daodejing in his Introduction to Classical Chinese Philosophy: > The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff ... is a charming work that has attained a wide readership. There is nothing wrong with enjoying it for itself. But it reveals much more about how the Daodejing as been appropriated to illustrate Western Romanticism than it does about the Daodejing itself. (See later in this section for more on Romanticism). and, later on, here's what he has to say about the appropriation of the Daodejing and Daoism for Romanticism: > We see a similar trend in the West. In particular, contemporary Westerners often project onto the Daodejing the assumptions of Romanticism. In reaction against the emphasis on reason that was characteristic of the Enlightenment, Romanticism championed the importance and wisdom of one's passions. But the dichotomy of reason and passion is Western, not Chinese, and the individualism characteristic in some forms of Romanticism is quite alien to the Daodejing. Consequently, we should be on the lookout for how Romantic preconceptions can distort our appreciation of the text. Sadly, there's not many good non-academic introductions to Daoism out there, and the most popular translation - Stephen Mitchell's - was done by someone who can't even read Classical Chinese, but thought his Zen teaching was a 'good enough' guide to allow him to translate it. ----------- All this is to say I'm glad the book worked for you, and helped you find peace. It's just not Daoism (nor is Alan Watts!)
- everydayDonut 3y ago
  Wow thank you for this! I suppose that's what the answer could have been for me, a kind of bridging between my lifelong reverence and pursuit of reason, and the passion or intuition that I didn't understand in others or myself. I'm still early into reading the James Legge translation, but I've heard that there are many interpretations of the original. Is the tao of pooh not even close to daoism then?
  - javert 3y ago
    Perhaps the Tao of Pooh is better than the original Taoism, or is an improvement. If you like TOP better, or think it's more correct, or more wise, that's fine. (I don't think so, but someone else might.) I also strongly disagree with some of the sibling comments which insist that Taoism does not have a non-mystical (i.e., non-religious) core. As a disclaimer, I'm not really an expert. But I can see that there is a wise and rational framework there, that does not depend on make believe.
galaxyLogic 3y ago
I think meditation is similar to physical exercise which you need to do a little bit frequently, to stay healthy. You don't need to do sports but if you stop walking altogether your physical health deteriorates. Your joints get arthritic. So the goal of meditation should not be some Cosmic Epiphany Truth or Satori or Nirvana or Samadhi. Those come and go. The goal is to keep your mind healthy, to get the toxins out of it by doing meditation not too much not too little.
- FollowingTheDao 3y ago
  You do not need to sit down to mediate. That is the biggest myth. I mediate while going about my day.
  - vram22 3y ago
    Right, it is a myth. There's a lot of misinformation floating around about the subject. Basically, any activity can be a meditation. So can no activity, e.g. zazen.
  - Tao3300 3y ago
    > You do not need to sit down to mediate. I find that if I try to mediate standing up I come across as aggressive.
    - fuzztester 3y ago
      Some things are better done in private, because some people don't get what you're doing and feel fazed or threatened by it, for whatever reason, typically ignorance or intolerance.
      - Tao3300 3y ago
        Yes, usually privacy is valued over transparency in mediation. It depends on the parties involved and their concerns, naturally.
- VerminOctopus1 3y ago
opportune 3y ago
I’ve had a similar experience with Taoism. It is a kind of tough nut to crack coming from Western cultures what with our extensive theologies, holy books, and prescriptivist religions. I highly recommend “The Way of Chuang Tzu” by Thomas Merton. Perhaps this betrays some fundamental ignorance on my part, but I think understanding and internalizing the Taoist mindset makes meditation a little less relevant or necessary. Taoism IMO is the sublime wisdom of not attempting to be wise (usually manifesting as inane and unnuanced rules, or clever-sounding quotes) and not neuorotically attempting to conform to practices or ways of thinking forced on us by culture, tradition, ideology, etc. Meditation and mindfulness help incrementally in that pursuit but they are like climbing rungs of a ladder next to an elevator that Zhuangzi built for us.
- everydayDonut 3y ago
  That's exactly how I feel about it, you just put it in better words. Thank you for the recommendation
- haswell 3y ago
  > Meditation and mindfulness help incrementally in that pursuit but they are like climbing rungs of a ladder next to an elevator that Zhuangzi built for us. It’s critical to note that not all paths/forms of meditation involve climbing rungs of a ladder or really any notion of a path whatsoever. The practice of sitting is only for the purpose of training the mind to focus, which helps some people reach the “non-dual” state more effectively. For example, the Dzogchen approach relies more on directly pointing out aspects of experience in a way that brings the listener more directly into contact with the current moment/unfolding experience and towards the same state that “ladder” meditation approaches aim to reach. Many of the modern western teachers have gravitated to a more direct approach as well because it’s more palatable to the audience here (and frankly, far more practical and immediately useful). Mentioning this because the perception that there’s a steep and long journey ahead is not necessary, and has turned plenty of interested people away from the idea of trying. With all of that said, I haven’t explored Taoism, and it sounds interesting.
  - opportune 3y ago
mbivert 3y ago
> or has had experience with both that and taoism and what that journey was like for you. When I was in early high school/late middle school, I stumbled upon the Tao Te Ching at the local library. I remembered not understanding much, and the only memory I have left is the peculiar, tai-ji like visual symmetry of the first two (Chinese) sentences (it was one of those books with the source one one side, and a translation on the next). Which definitely sparked a fierce interest in Chinese language/culture. Other books like the Art of War were a breeze of fresh air: so much common sense.
varjag 3y ago
It sounds like a book title that would be super banned in the homeland of Taoism…
joe__f 3y ago
Zen is also partly based on Taoism. I recommend Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Hmm, I guess I am one of those folks who are complete without knowing why or how, or maybe I do but cant be sure. At least for past decade and a half, before that I was just a big useless lost child (I see big children around a lot, some are nearing retirement). Definitely no nurture, an average guy with slightly above average mind raised in former communist bloc, if that means anything to you (kids raised as obedient workers, no critical thinking, no strive for greatness, little self sufficiency and other real life skills, thank you soviet fucking russia union for destroying not only my parents lives and dreams). What I achieved in my life is beyond wildest dreams of my humble parents, but they had a nano fraction of my options. One thing I have is self-discipline but that may not be related. Or maybe non trivial consumption of weed over past 2 decades in right moments. I can empty my mind completely with a snap of a finger, and keep it so if I wish. Mindfulness is utterly boring to me as it does nothing since I am there on my own without even trying, just gets me very sleepy and decreases my heart rate to the point of being cold. Mild extreme sports make the 'feeling whole' part work. Currently probably rock climbing is #1 with a great buddy (american teacher), followed by my eternal struggle to get finally proficient at paragliding. Small kids give a lot of other fulfilment and take away easy sleep and some mental stability, thats a mixed blessing to be polite.
2-718-281-828 3y ago
just a few thoughts. it is possible that your discovery of mindfulness and meditation was essential to understand this tao of pooh and make it work for you. i also notice that there are people who seem to be blessed with a natural ability to be mindful. those people also tend to be charismatic, happy most of the time, full of intrinsic motivation and energy. all those things i'm not ... lol. my understand is that those people experienced no or only mild childhood trauma and grew up with strong and loving bonds to their parents and siblings. this idea is founded on my readings of dr gabor mate. those people do not carry any pain or if they do they have very well developed mental strategies to mange it. if you don't - like me again - then you will always have an inclination to distract yourself from yourself and your emotional experience - the opposite of mindfulness. as a matter of fact this distraction is becoming the default mental strategy to cope with this always present nagging nervousness and irritation. #adhd

rollinDyno 3y ago

What reasons do you have to trust your intuition? Why do you happen to have a certain intuition and why is it likely to give you the right answers?

lootsauce 3y ago

I picked up the Tao Te Ching in middle school and would reread it frequently. The personal insights would evolve as I grew up and faced different issues in my life. I found an abiding peace in those personal insights and they have held with me since. One of those insights is something like having instead of seeking as an identity. I don’t feel that I want to seek to find myself or some great answer, it’s already there, I already have it. YMMV bits a wonderful ancient text. I recommend the S. Mitchel translation. I could never get into the sitting and breathing kind of meditation, but I do find different times I am able to practice very meditative activities such as walking in the woods, aimless wandering, puttering about with no intention just taking in the world. I used to do zen inspired landscape photography and that whole process felt very meditative to me.

dorchadas 3y ago

Sadly the Tao of Pooh does not outline the basic tenets of Daoism. As van Norden says in the chapter on the Daodejing in his Introduction to Classical Chinese Philosophy: > The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff ... is a charming work that has attained a wide readership. There is nothing wrong with enjoying it for itself. But it reveals much more about how the Daodejing as been appropriated to illustrate Western Romanticism than it does about the Daodejing itself. (See later in this section for more on Romanticism). and, later on, here's what he has to say about the appropriation of the Daodejing and Daoism for Romanticism: > We see a similar trend in the West. In particular, contemporary Westerners often project onto the Daodejing the assumptions of Romanticism. In reaction against the emphasis on reason that was characteristic of the Enlightenment, Romanticism championed the importance and wisdom of one's passions. But the dichotomy of reason and passion is Western, not Chinese, and the individualism characteristic in some forms of Romanticism is quite alien to the Daodejing. Consequently, we should be on the lookout for how Romantic preconceptions can distort our appreciation of the text. Sadly, there's not many good non-academic introductions to Daoism out there, and the most popular translation - Stephen Mitchell's - was done by someone who can't even read Classical Chinese, but thought his Zen teaching was a 'good enough' guide to allow him to translate it. ----------- All this is to say I'm glad the book worked for you, and helped you find peace. It's just not Daoism (nor is Alan Watts!)

everydayDonut 3y ago
Wow thank you for this! I suppose that's what the answer could have been for me, a kind of bridging between my lifelong reverence and pursuit of reason, and the passion or intuition that I didn't understand in others or myself. I'm still early into reading the James Legge translation, but I've heard that there are many interpretations of the original. Is the tao of pooh not even close to daoism then?
- javert 3y ago
  Perhaps the Tao of Pooh is better than the original Taoism, or is an improvement. If you like TOP better, or think it's more correct, or more wise, that's fine. (I don't think so, but someone else might.) I also strongly disagree with some of the sibling comments which insist that Taoism does not have a non-mystical (i.e., non-religious) core. As a disclaimer, I'm not really an expert. But I can see that there is a wise and rational framework there, that does not depend on make believe.

galaxyLogic 3y ago

I think meditation is similar to physical exercise which you need to do a little bit frequently, to stay healthy. You don't need to do sports but if you stop walking altogether your physical health deteriorates. Your joints get arthritic. So the goal of meditation should not be some Cosmic Epiphany Truth or Satori or Nirvana or Samadhi. Those come and go. The goal is to keep your mind healthy, to get the toxins out of it by doing meditation not too much not too little.

FollowingTheDao 3y ago
You do not need to sit down to mediate. That is the biggest myth. I mediate while going about my day.
- vram22 3y ago
  Right, it is a myth. There's a lot of misinformation floating around about the subject. Basically, any activity can be a meditation. So can no activity, e.g. zazen.
- Tao3300 3y ago
  > You do not need to sit down to mediate. I find that if I try to mediate standing up I come across as aggressive.
  - fuzztester 3y ago
    Some things are better done in private, because some people don't get what you're doing and feel fazed or threatened by it, for whatever reason, typically ignorance or intolerance.
    - Tao3300 3y ago
      Yes, usually privacy is valued over transparency in mediation. It depends on the parties involved and their concerns, naturally.
VerminOctopus1 3y ago

opportune 3y ago

I’ve had a similar experience with Taoism. It is a kind of tough nut to crack coming from Western cultures what with our extensive theologies, holy books, and prescriptivist religions. I highly recommend “The Way of Chuang Tzu” by Thomas Merton. Perhaps this betrays some fundamental ignorance on my part, but I think understanding and internalizing the Taoist mindset makes meditation a little less relevant or necessary. Taoism IMO is the sublime wisdom of not attempting to be wise (usually manifesting as inane and unnuanced rules, or clever-sounding quotes) and not neuorotically attempting to conform to practices or ways of thinking forced on us by culture, tradition, ideology, etc. Meditation and mindfulness help incrementally in that pursuit but they are like climbing rungs of a ladder next to an elevator that Zhuangzi built for us.

everydayDonut 3y ago
That's exactly how I feel about it, you just put it in better words. Thank you for the recommendation
haswell 3y ago
> Meditation and mindfulness help incrementally in that pursuit but they are like climbing rungs of a ladder next to an elevator that Zhuangzi built for us. It’s critical to note that not all paths/forms of meditation involve climbing rungs of a ladder or really any notion of a path whatsoever. The practice of sitting is only for the purpose of training the mind to focus, which helps some people reach the “non-dual” state more effectively. For example, the Dzogchen approach relies more on directly pointing out aspects of experience in a way that brings the listener more directly into contact with the current moment/unfolding experience and towards the same state that “ladder” meditation approaches aim to reach. Many of the modern western teachers have gravitated to a more direct approach as well because it’s more palatable to the audience here (and frankly, far more practical and immediately useful). Mentioning this because the perception that there’s a steep and long journey ahead is not necessary, and has turned plenty of interested people away from the idea of trying. With all of that said, I haven’t explored Taoism, and it sounds interesting.
- opportune 3y ago

mbivert 3y ago

> or has had experience with both that and taoism and what that journey was like for you. When I was in early high school/late middle school, I stumbled upon the Tao Te Ching at the local library. I remembered not understanding much, and the only memory I have left is the peculiar, tai-ji like visual symmetry of the first two (Chinese) sentences (it was one of those books with the source one one side, and a translation on the next). Which definitely sparked a fierce interest in Chinese language/culture. Other books like the Art of War were a breeze of fresh air: so much common sense.

varjag 3y ago

It sounds like a book title that would be super banned in the homeland of Taoism…

joe__f 3y ago

Zen is also partly based on Taoism. I recommend Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki.

saiya-jin 3y ago

Hmm, I guess I am one of those folks who are complete without knowing why or how, or maybe I do but cant be sure. At least for past decade and a half, before that I was just a big useless lost child (I see big children around a lot, some are nearing retirement). Definitely no nurture, an average guy with slightly above average mind raised in former communist bloc, if that means anything to you (kids raised as obedient workers, no critical thinking, no strive for greatness, little self sufficiency and other real life skills, thank you soviet fucking russia union for destroying not only my parents lives and dreams). What I achieved in my life is beyond wildest dreams of my humble parents, but they had a nano fraction of my options. One thing I have is self-discipline but that may not be related. Or maybe non trivial consumption of weed over past 2 decades in right moments. I can empty my mind completely with a snap of a finger, and keep it so if I wish. Mindfulness is utterly boring to me as it does nothing since I am there on my own without even trying, just gets me very sleepy and decreases my heart rate to the point of being cold. Mild extreme sports make the 'feeling whole' part work. Currently probably rock climbing is #1 with a great buddy (american teacher), followed by my eternal struggle to get finally proficient at paragliding. Small kids give a lot of other fulfilment and take away easy sleep and some mental stability, thats a mixed blessing to be polite.

2-718-281-828 3y ago

just a few thoughts. it is possible that your discovery of mindfulness and meditation was essential to understand this tao of pooh and make it work for you. i also notice that there are people who seem to be blessed with a natural ability to be mindful. those people also tend to be charismatic, happy most of the time, full of intrinsic motivation and energy. all those things i'm not ... lol. my understand is that those people experienced no or only mild childhood trauma and grew up with strong and loving bonds to their parents and siblings. this idea is founded on my readings of dr gabor mate. those people do not carry any pain or if they do they have very well developed mental strategies to mange it. if you don't - like me again - then you will always have an inclination to distract yourself from yourself and your emotional experience - the opposite of mindfulness. as a matter of fact this distraction is becoming the default mental strategy to cope with this always present nagging nervousness and irritation. #adhd