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Then as they clawed their way back from the precipice, they started "adding value" again. I don't know if I can agree. On the software side, MacOS support

Then as they clawed their way back from the precipice, they started "adding value" again. I don't know if I can agree. On the software side, MacOS supports all those things. On the hardware side, it's still (edit: almost) nothing but industry-standard ports.

gumby 3y ago
I didn't say they necessarily denigrated the open formats but added and preferred their own proprietary image, audio etc formats as they gained market strength. On the hardware side I'm delighted by Apple's USB C/TB push (and Apple contributed a lot to those standards, esp based on what they had learned with Lightning) but note they revived the proprietary "magsafe" connecter on recent laptops (though you can still use USB C PD). Apparently enough customers wanted it. And as others have pointed out, Apple is hardly alone in this
- als0 3y ago
  > Apparently enough customers wanted it. Magsafe is genuinely a nice innovation that users missed. It solves the cord yank problem. But I do like having the option to use USB-C if I don't have the MagSafe cable.
  - memefrog 3y ago
    Also USB-C absolutely sucks. The socket seems to attract dirt and dust in a way that prevents its proper working like no other.
    - brokenmachine 3y ago
      I have lots of USB-C devices and never had that problem. I'm careful with my stuff though.
      - Unfrozen0688 3y ago
        Phones are very sensitive to it as they are in a pocket. Pocket lint -> pushed in USB cable -> after some years the connector wont connect anymore
        brokenmachine 3y ago
        Had lots of phones, always in my pocket, never had that problem. Actually I just realized I put it in my pocket top-end down. So the usb socket is facing the sky. I suppose that might keep the usb socket further from pocket lint.
    - amluto 3y ago
      The only port I’ve ever experienced this problem with is Lightning. At least on many iPhone versions, if anything damages one of the delicate lead springs inside the port, Apple service will tell you to replace the entire phone.
  - gumby 3y ago
    I'm the other way around: I just want to carry a UB C cable or two. The cable was designed so wear and damage should accrue to the cable, not the connector in your device.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      The current computers are the best of both worlds in that respect :)
- JohnBooty 3y ago
  That's true. I forgot they brought Magsafe back. (Side note: I don't know why they couldn't just make a standard USB-C connector, except magnetic...)
  - ctippett 3y ago
    Some of the new MacBooks require a charging port capable of greater than the current USB-C specification limit of 100W, that's likely one reason why they decided against coopting USB-C exclusively for charging.
    - dwaite 3y ago
      USB-C now allows 240W
      - ctippett 3y ago
        I wasn't aware, thanks!
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    About your side note: That seems physically impossible. Magsafe only has five pins, and is larger than USB-C, which has twenty-four pins. To me, USB-C is a modern miracle. It is so small, reasonably strong, reversible, and has very high pin density.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    Amusingly the new MagSafe is based on USB-PD I believe, just in a different connector form factor. (The old was 1-wire I think?)
- tuetuopay 3y ago
  > Apparently enough customers wanted it. This magnetic thing saved my macbook from numerous falls when people tripped on the power cord. It was ubiquitous, worked across the whole lineup and for several generations. It is hard to forget that until usb-c, it was commonplace for a manufacturer to have a wide range of power adapters, of varying voltage, power, connector, etc. Apple do their own shit, but they do it consistently.
gardnr 3y ago
Right, I quite often charge my Asus laptop with my MagSafe charger.
- JohnBooty 3y ago
  I charge my Mac with USB-C. Your Asus has that, right? But yeah, I forgot they brought MagSafe back. Thanks, corrected.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I think you are joking, but if you want to, you can buy an adapter for like €10 that will go from magsafe to USB-C, and then indeed charge your non-Apple laptop with it.
xp84 3y ago
iChat stored every conversation (if you enabled history) in HTML files the user could find in their Documents folder and read. Messages history is stored in an undocumented SQLite database that you’re not meant to touch. I’m not saying they’re completely proprietary in every way, but you can see the progression from wide open to “keep your hands off.” For another example, Apple Notes was actually just mail messages stored in IMAP, until they decided to deprecate that in favor of another iCloud-backed black box in order to add more features.
- hooch 3y ago
  IMAP notes still works.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    It works about as well as it always did, which was not very well.
- bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
  Html as a database is unacceptable though. Emails as notes sounds pretty clever though.
jwells89 3y ago
One thing that I've enjoyed is how for decades Mail.app has been first and foremost a generic IMAP mail client, with features specific to iCloud Mail being far and few between. It works exactly as well with e.g. Fastmail as it does iCloud Mail. Conversely, iCloud Mail is just plain old IMAP and works fine with other generic IMAP clients. Compare this with Gmail for example, which has a crummy IMAP implementation, and though the Gmail mobile app supports adding non-Google IMAP accounts, it clearly prioritizes being a Gmail client.

gumby 3y ago

I didn't say they necessarily denigrated the open formats but added and preferred their own proprietary image, audio etc formats as they gained market strength. On the hardware side I'm delighted by Apple's USB C/TB push (and Apple contributed a lot to those standards, esp based on what they had learned with Lightning) but note they revived the proprietary "magsafe" connecter on recent laptops (though you can still use USB C PD). Apparently enough customers wanted it. And as others have pointed out, Apple is hardly alone in this

als0 3y ago
> Apparently enough customers wanted it. Magsafe is genuinely a nice innovation that users missed. It solves the cord yank problem. But I do like having the option to use USB-C if I don't have the MagSafe cable.
- memefrog 3y ago
  Also USB-C absolutely sucks. The socket seems to attract dirt and dust in a way that prevents its proper working like no other.
  - brokenmachine 3y ago
    I have lots of USB-C devices and never had that problem. I'm careful with my stuff though.
    - Unfrozen0688 3y ago
      Phones are very sensitive to it as they are in a pocket. Pocket lint -> pushed in USB cable -> after some years the connector wont connect anymore
      - brokenmachine 3y ago
        Had lots of phones, always in my pocket, never had that problem. Actually I just realized I put it in my pocket top-end down. So the usb socket is facing the sky. I suppose that might keep the usb socket further from pocket lint.
  - amluto 3y ago
    The only port I’ve ever experienced this problem with is Lightning. At least on many iPhone versions, if anything damages one of the delicate lead springs inside the port, Apple service will tell you to replace the entire phone.
- gumby 3y ago
  I'm the other way around: I just want to carry a UB C cable or two. The cable was designed so wear and damage should accrue to the cable, not the connector in your device.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    The current computers are the best of both worlds in that respect :)
JohnBooty 3y ago
That's true. I forgot they brought Magsafe back. (Side note: I don't know why they couldn't just make a standard USB-C connector, except magnetic...)
- ctippett 3y ago
  Some of the new MacBooks require a charging port capable of greater than the current USB-C specification limit of 100W, that's likely one reason why they decided against coopting USB-C exclusively for charging.
  - dwaite 3y ago
    USB-C now allows 240W
    - ctippett 3y ago
      I wasn't aware, thanks!
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  About your side note: That seems physically impossible. Magsafe only has five pins, and is larger than USB-C, which has twenty-four pins. To me, USB-C is a modern miracle. It is so small, reasonably strong, reversible, and has very high pin density.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  Amusingly the new MagSafe is based on USB-PD I believe, just in a different connector form factor. (The old was 1-wire I think?)
tuetuopay 3y ago
> Apparently enough customers wanted it. This magnetic thing saved my macbook from numerous falls when people tripped on the power cord. It was ubiquitous, worked across the whole lineup and for several generations. It is hard to forget that until usb-c, it was commonplace for a manufacturer to have a wide range of power adapters, of varying voltage, power, connector, etc. Apple do their own shit, but they do it consistently.

gardnr 3y ago

Right, I quite often charge my Asus laptop with my MagSafe charger.

JohnBooty 3y ago
I charge my Mac with USB-C. Your Asus has that, right? But yeah, I forgot they brought MagSafe back. Thanks, corrected.
nerdbert 3y ago
I think you are joking, but if you want to, you can buy an adapter for like €10 that will go from magsafe to USB-C, and then indeed charge your non-Apple laptop with it.

xp84 3y ago

iChat stored every conversation (if you enabled history) in HTML files the user could find in their Documents folder and read. Messages history is stored in an undocumented SQLite database that you’re not meant to touch. I’m not saying they’re completely proprietary in every way, but you can see the progression from wide open to “keep your hands off.” For another example, Apple Notes was actually just mail messages stored in IMAP, until they decided to deprecate that in favor of another iCloud-backed black box in order to add more features.

hooch 3y ago
IMAP notes still works.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  It works about as well as it always did, which was not very well.
bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
Html as a database is unacceptable though. Emails as notes sounds pretty clever though.

jwells89 3y ago

One thing that I've enjoyed is how for decades Mail.app has been first and foremost a generic IMAP mail client, with features specific to iCloud Mail being far and few between. It works exactly as well with e.g. Fastmail as it does iCloud Mail. Conversely, iCloud Mail is just plain old IMAP and works fine with other generic IMAP clients. Compare this with Gmail for example, which has a crummy IMAP implementation, and though the Gmail mobile app supports adding non-Google IMAP accounts, it clearly prioritizes being a Gmail client.