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Obligatory rant against the "Identity Theft" deception promoted by banks. The victims of fraud in these cases are the banks, not you. You still have your iden

Obligatory rant against the "Identity Theft" deception promoted by banks. The victims of fraud in these cases are the banks, not you. You still have your identity. The banks/creditors gave their money (not yours) to a criminal through their own neglect. It's an unconscionable fantasy that you as an individual are the victim in these situations when you had no involvement whatsoever. Laws need to be updated to reflect this reality. Banks will continue to act haphazardly so long as they are allowed to pass the bill for their own carelessness onto innocent people. Awareness should be spread by disavowing the entire "identity theft" deceit any time it comes up in a public forum. Highly relevant Mitchell and Webb radio skit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E

zamadatix 3y ago
You build up a reputation for being a reliable borrower of debts or a good/clean societal record and someone steals that identity to abuse it and leave you with the baggage. You report "Identity Theft" to regain that identity and reputation, not on behalf of the money banks lost to fraudsters, hence the name. There are plenty of things wrong with the current credit identity system, the name of identity theft is either not one of them at all or near the bottom of the list.
- oxygen_crisis 3y ago
  > someone steals that identity This is exactly the fantasy that we need to dispel, not rationalize. Nobody steals your identity. You always have your identity, and nobody else ever does. Your identity is not the few pieces of trivia a criminal can easily discover about you. The criminal never takes or has your identity. The bank is simply neglecting to correctly identify someone. > steals that identity to abuse it Criminals are not abusing your identity, they are abusing the banks' careless failure to correctly identify people. > to abuse it and leave you with the baggage The criminal is not leaving you with the baggage, the bank is. They use willfully inept processes, because they have tricked you into believing you should bear the responsibility for the consequences of their own hubris.
  - GauntletWizard 3y ago
    You're confusing two concepts that share a word: Your identity in the sense of self worth and personal ideals, and other people's view of you, your identity to them - Their interpretation of the former, to some extent, but also their judgements on your trustworthiness. It's the latter that's being stolen. It's a crime against both you and your friends and creditors.
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    Having your identity stolen and having your identity permanently removed are not identical actions. If I use a keylogger to grab your passwords and impersonate you in emails, forums, and so on then your identity is stolen, it's in use by someone else instead of you without consent for a period of time. This does not mean your identity has been removed from you permanently. This also does not mean your identity was always in your control just because the sites should have done more verification to see if it was you. It was still stolen but the fraud wasn't caught, and the lost money due to fraud falls between the criminal and 3rd party regardless independent of your identity being fraudulently used. Keep in mind that's how it is today, if your identity is stolen it is already the bank that eats the loss due to fraudulent lending. If you still disagree please try to make an argument without mentioning banks. Identity theft covers a lot more than banking fraud so the explanation shouldn't explain how you want the term to be changed to something which focuses solely on banks. The processes in place do suck. That has nothing to do with the name of the crime though.
    - oxygen_crisis 3y ago
      > identity, noun, The condition of being a certain person or thing. Someone who steals my passwords can impersonate me, they can not become me. Someone who tricks people into thinking they are me is still not me. An account is not an identity. My online accounts are not me, and I am not my online accounts.
      - zamadatix 3y ago
        There are many dictionary definitions of identity. Take Merriam-Webster: "1a: the distinguishing character or personality of an individual 2: the condition of being the same with something described or asserted 3a: sameness of essential or generic character in different instances" Or the Cambridge dictionary: "a person's name and other facts about who they are:" Of course, you're always welcome to intentionally pick the incorrect context (going back to Merriam-Webster): "4: an equation that is satisfied for all values of the symbols" And just as easily rant the name of the crime has nothing to do with math so it needs to be renamed.
YVoyiatzis 3y ago
Often, bankers themselves are the fraudsters.
failbuffer 3y ago
If you want to sell this idea you at least need to have a name for it.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  Fraud. It's called fraud. Someone is defrauding the bank. The bank is the victim. However, the person whose identity was referenced by the criminal has nothing to do with the interaction. The criminal did not steal an identity. They stole money from a bank through fraud.
  - bigmofo 3y ago
    Lets take this one step farther, call it identity fraud and not just fraud; otherwise, identity theft will probably be with us.
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      That term was already coined as a synonym. I wonder which form of fraud does not involve some kind of misrepresentation though. What makes it notable that a person who actually exists is being used as the conman's fictitious identity if we aren't interested in somehow offloading the risk to that person? Presumably this happened before the 1960s when it began to be called "identity theft" (and if you look at an ngram the term really only comes to be widely used in the mid-to-late 90s).
dylan604 3y ago
>Banks will continue to act haphazardly so long as they are allowed to pass the bill for their own carelessness onto innocent people. I kind of feel like banks are fans of one mister Dewey Crowe, "The anus is upon you" to protect your data. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1489428/characters/nm0380632?ref_=tt_cl_c_15 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1489428/characters/nm0380632?re...)

zamadatix 3y ago

You build up a reputation for being a reliable borrower of debts or a good/clean societal record and someone steals that identity to abuse it and leave you with the baggage. You report "Identity Theft" to regain that identity and reputation, not on behalf of the money banks lost to fraudsters, hence the name. There are plenty of things wrong with the current credit identity system, the name of identity theft is either not one of them at all or near the bottom of the list.

oxygen_crisis 3y ago
> someone steals that identity This is exactly the fantasy that we need to dispel, not rationalize. Nobody steals your identity. You always have your identity, and nobody else ever does. Your identity is not the few pieces of trivia a criminal can easily discover about you. The criminal never takes or has your identity. The bank is simply neglecting to correctly identify someone. > steals that identity to abuse it Criminals are not abusing your identity, they are abusing the banks' careless failure to correctly identify people. > to abuse it and leave you with the baggage The criminal is not leaving you with the baggage, the bank is. They use willfully inept processes, because they have tricked you into believing you should bear the responsibility for the consequences of their own hubris.
- GauntletWizard 3y ago
  You're confusing two concepts that share a word: Your identity in the sense of self worth and personal ideals, and other people's view of you, your identity to them - Their interpretation of the former, to some extent, but also their judgements on your trustworthiness. It's the latter that's being stolen. It's a crime against both you and your friends and creditors.
- zamadatix 3y ago
  Having your identity stolen and having your identity permanently removed are not identical actions. If I use a keylogger to grab your passwords and impersonate you in emails, forums, and so on then your identity is stolen, it's in use by someone else instead of you without consent for a period of time. This does not mean your identity has been removed from you permanently. This also does not mean your identity was always in your control just because the sites should have done more verification to see if it was you. It was still stolen but the fraud wasn't caught, and the lost money due to fraud falls between the criminal and 3rd party regardless independent of your identity being fraudulently used. Keep in mind that's how it is today, if your identity is stolen it is already the bank that eats the loss due to fraudulent lending. If you still disagree please try to make an argument without mentioning banks. Identity theft covers a lot more than banking fraud so the explanation shouldn't explain how you want the term to be changed to something which focuses solely on banks. The processes in place do suck. That has nothing to do with the name of the crime though.
  - oxygen_crisis 3y ago
    > identity, noun, The condition of being a certain person or thing. Someone who steals my passwords can impersonate me, they can not become me. Someone who tricks people into thinking they are me is still not me. An account is not an identity. My online accounts are not me, and I am not my online accounts.
    - zamadatix 3y ago
      There are many dictionary definitions of identity. Take Merriam-Webster: "1a: the distinguishing character or personality of an individual 2: the condition of being the same with something described or asserted 3a: sameness of essential or generic character in different instances" Or the Cambridge dictionary: "a person's name and other facts about who they are:" Of course, you're always welcome to intentionally pick the incorrect context (going back to Merriam-Webster): "4: an equation that is satisfied for all values of the symbols" And just as easily rant the name of the crime has nothing to do with math so it needs to be renamed.

YVoyiatzis 3y ago

Often, bankers themselves are the fraudsters.

failbuffer 3y ago

If you want to sell this idea you at least need to have a name for it.

xboxnolifes 3y ago
Fraud. It's called fraud. Someone is defrauding the bank. The bank is the victim. However, the person whose identity was referenced by the criminal has nothing to do with the interaction. The criminal did not steal an identity. They stole money from a bank through fraud.
- bigmofo 3y ago
  Lets take this one step farther, call it identity fraud and not just fraud; otherwise, identity theft will probably be with us.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    That term was already coined as a synonym. I wonder which form of fraud does not involve some kind of misrepresentation though. What makes it notable that a person who actually exists is being used as the conman's fictitious identity if we aren't interested in somehow offloading the risk to that person? Presumably this happened before the 1960s when it began to be called "identity theft" (and if you look at an ngram the term really only comes to be widely used in the mid-to-late 90s).

dylan604 3y ago

>Banks will continue to act haphazardly so long as they are allowed to pass the bill for their own carelessness onto innocent people. I kind of feel like banks are fans of one mister Dewey Crowe, "The anus is upon you" to protect your data. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1489428/characters/nm0380632?ref_=tt_cl_c_15 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1489428/characters/nm0380632?re...)