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>South Africa is a dirt-poor nation that's suffered decades of colonialism and apartheid At what point does that stop being an excuse? Early 90s it had a peac

>South Africa is a dirt-poor nation that's suffered decades of colonialism and apartheid At what point does that stop being an excuse? Early 90s it had a peaceful handover of power, democratic elections, a functioning govt. Look at how eastern Europe has developed in the same period.

TOGoS 3y ago
> At what point does that stop being an excuse? Ah, the old imperialist "Look, I gave you your wallet back (after taking what I wanted from it); what's the problem? By the way, I need cheap labor and you look like you need a job." schtick.
- benj111 3y ago
  Is the US still blaming Britain for its ills? Is Britain still blaming the french and Italians (Romans) for its ills? Yes fine I took your wallet. But that was 30 years ago. Will your great grand children still be blaming my grand children for the stolen wallet? Do I still get to hate the land owning elite over what they did to my forbears? Do I still get to hate the Germans because of the world wars?
  - SenAnder 3y ago
    Empirically the answer is yes. The more wrongs that have been inflicted upon you, the greater your moral standing. So long as you remember and publicize those wrongs. Because if you don't, others will make it seem like you are the sole villain of history, and they innocent victims. That is what happens to those who forget history - others will remember a self-serving version of that history, full of tactical omissions, for them.
    - benj111 3y ago
      There's a difference between remembering, and moving on. It's got nothing to do with "moral standing" it just perpetuates a victim mentality. People and countries need to move on. That doesn't mean you need to forget. You need to remember, learn the lessons etc. None of my examples have been forgotten, all have been moved on from.
underlipton 3y ago
When there is actually a true reconciliation for what happened in its past. This would require - as with Haiti, as with Venezuela, as with the poorer regions of China that have been essentially annexed by Beijing - certain international entities to get over their hurt feelings at losing a gem in their crowns of exploitation, and to end their marriage to toxic self-interest, which prevent SA from taking proactive steps to expand their pie, as it were. It would also require people within the country building a profound sense of national and communal trust (not rebuilding, because no such thing has existed before). One of the most famous para-athletes in history shot his wife to death through a bathroom door, out a fear that connects directly to the internalized lies of Apartheid and colonialism.
- benj111 3y ago
  Define "true reconciliation". Who are these "international entities"? >It would also require people within the country building a profound sense of national and communal trust Good point. But it hasn't happened this far, no one seems to be suggesting it. Do you think south Africa would be better off it it broke up into its constituent tribal areas? >out a fear that connects directly to the internalized lies of Apartheid and colonialism That's a very big stretch
  - underlipton 3y ago
    Your default to interrogation on an assumption that my statements are suspect is noted. I will not be indulging you. >That's a very big stretch It is not. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35006865 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35006865 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/5/13/oscar-pistorius-and-the-white-fear-factor https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/5/13/oscar-pistorius...
    - benj111 3y ago
      And yet you don't clarify. "True reconciliation" could mean anything. And your "international entities" just sounds tin foil hat flat earther

TOGoS 3y ago

> At what point does that stop being an excuse? Ah, the old imperialist "Look, I gave you your wallet back (after taking what I wanted from it); what's the problem? By the way, I need cheap labor and you look like you need a job." schtick.

benj111 3y ago
Is the US still blaming Britain for its ills? Is Britain still blaming the french and Italians (Romans) for its ills? Yes fine I took your wallet. But that was 30 years ago. Will your great grand children still be blaming my grand children for the stolen wallet? Do I still get to hate the land owning elite over what they did to my forbears? Do I still get to hate the Germans because of the world wars?
- SenAnder 3y ago
  Empirically the answer is yes. The more wrongs that have been inflicted upon you, the greater your moral standing. So long as you remember and publicize those wrongs. Because if you don't, others will make it seem like you are the sole villain of history, and they innocent victims. That is what happens to those who forget history - others will remember a self-serving version of that history, full of tactical omissions, for them.
  - benj111 3y ago
    There's a difference between remembering, and moving on. It's got nothing to do with "moral standing" it just perpetuates a victim mentality. People and countries need to move on. That doesn't mean you need to forget. You need to remember, learn the lessons etc. None of my examples have been forgotten, all have been moved on from.

underlipton 3y ago

When there is actually a true reconciliation for what happened in its past. This would require - as with Haiti, as with Venezuela, as with the poorer regions of China that have been essentially annexed by Beijing - certain international entities to get over their hurt feelings at losing a gem in their crowns of exploitation, and to end their marriage to toxic self-interest, which prevent SA from taking proactive steps to expand their pie, as it were. It would also require people within the country building a profound sense of national and communal trust (not rebuilding, because no such thing has existed before). One of the most famous para-athletes in history shot his wife to death through a bathroom door, out a fear that connects directly to the internalized lies of Apartheid and colonialism.

benj111 3y ago
Define "true reconciliation". Who are these "international entities"? >It would also require people within the country building a profound sense of national and communal trust Good point. But it hasn't happened this far, no one seems to be suggesting it. Do you think south Africa would be better off it it broke up into its constituent tribal areas? >out a fear that connects directly to the internalized lies of Apartheid and colonialism That's a very big stretch
- underlipton 3y ago
  Your default to interrogation on an assumption that my statements are suspect is noted. I will not be indulging you. >That's a very big stretch It is not. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35006865 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35006865 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/5/13/oscar-pistorius-and-the-white-fear-factor https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2014/5/13/oscar-pistorius...
  - benj111 3y ago
    And yet you don't clarify. "True reconciliation" could mean anything. And your "international entities" just sounds tin foil hat flat earther