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If you want to look at the underlying reports they can be found here: https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-order-crash-reporting https://www

by Veserv 3y ago

If you want to look at the underlying reports they can be found here: https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-order-crash-reporting https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde... In particular here: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_In... You can see that Tesla always reports ADAS version as: [REDACTED, MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS INFORMATION]. Almost every other company reports the version almost always if it is known. Some companies have many unknowns, but most of those crash reports seem to be from customer reports which appear to not have associated telemetry. Of note, most of those reports with unknown version include un-redacted summaries and injury severity information, so they do seem to be good faith efforts, if somewhat lacking in actionable information. In contrast, Tesla redacts all narrative and does not confirm injury severity. In over 700 cases, around 95% of their reports, they choose not to investigate whether an injury or fatality occurred. In the ~5% with a confirmed injury/fatality, exactly one has no 3rd party confirmation. The other ~95% have no 3rd party reports of injury/fatality and lo and behold, no injury/fatality is reported. This is straight up impossible if you look at the crash reports. There are literally tens if not hundreds of high speed oncoming, t-bone, object, and pole collisions all with no recorded injury/fatality. They are absolutely reporting in bad faith.

FireBeyond 3y ago
> In contrast, Tesla redacts all narrative and does not confirm injury severity. In over 700 cases, around 95% of their reports, they choose not to investigate whether an injury or fatality occurred. Tesla has now "decided" that if active restraints or airbags are not deployed, that incident "does not count going forward". As an automobile manufacturer, there is no good conscience reasoning that Tesla is unaware that active restraint and airbag systems of today are far more nuanced and weigh multiple criteria when deciding to deploy (as compared to initial/early implementations, which were essentially "if collision=true and speed >= X mph then deploy"). You can have a very significant incident (two that I've witnessed recently as a paramedic involved vehicles into stationary objects at ~30mph) without airbag deployment. But if that was a Tesla in FSD that hit something at 30mph and didn't deploy airbags, well, that's not an accident according to Tesla. That also doesn't account for "incident was so catastrophic that restraint systems could not deploy", also "not counted" by Tesla. Or just as egregious, "systems failed to deploy for any reason up to and including poor assembly line quality control", also not an accident and also "not counted".
- Veserv 3y ago
  As far as I can tell that has always been their reporting methodology. As can be seen in Column CV, SV (subject vehicle) Any Airbags Deployed?, around 90% of all reports have Tesla airbag deployment. I have not been able to find reliable information on airbag deployment rate in crashes, but it is nowhere near 90%, so the report distribution is statistically unlikely if that was not already their reporting methodology.
Uzza 3y ago
> In contrast, Tesla redacts all narrative and does not confirm injury severity. In over 700 cases, around 95% of their reports, they choose not to investigate whether an injury or fatality occurred. The primary reason why all those Tesla cases lack those details, is that they're reported basically immediately when they happen, because all Teslas are connected to the mothership and report back when it happens. The NHTSA page even explicitly points it out under the data limitations section, under "Incident Report Data May Be Incomplete or Unverified". > This means that a reporting entity with access to vehicle telemetry may quickly become aware of an air bag deployment incident subject to the General Order, but it may not become aware of all circumstances related to the crash, such as surface conditions, whether all passengers were belted, or whether an injury occurred. This is also the reason why Tesla are so overrepresented in the data. Almost no other automaker has connected cars, or are like the GM On-Star a subscription service that not everyone has. All other reports have to come in manually though actual crash investigations, which can take time. Or not happen at all if nobody thinks those systems might have had been activated/relevant. For example, a car using driver assist technology getting t-boned by a manually driven car at an intersection will likely not raise any alarms about automated systems during crash investigations. But for Tesla they're reported, because they immediately know those cars were in a crash. So in conclusion, as NHTSA has said, none of the data has been normalized, and lacks important contextual information to properly analyze it, and should thus not be used by itself to draw any conclusions.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Almost no other automaker has connected cars Wait, is this true for EVs? I've written off purchasing an EV entirely because I don't want a connected car and I thought they all were. If there are ones that aren't connected, that changes the equation quite a lot.
  - Uzza 3y ago
    While I don't know about the details of what all the other EVs have, most of the legacy auto EVs model year 2020 and earlier were basically built on ICE platforms, and mostly have the same features except having an EV drivetrain. Many models coming out now are on new dedicated EV platforms, so you'd really have to check them to see what connectivity features they might have. Nothing about EVs require connectivity though, it's just Tesla that have caused a shift in direction in many other automakers.

by Veserv 3y ago

FireBeyond 3y ago

> In contrast, Tesla redacts all narrative and does not confirm injury severity. In over 700 cases, around 95% of their reports, they choose not to investigate whether an injury or fatality occurred. Tesla has now "decided" that if active restraints or airbags are not deployed, that incident "does not count going forward". As an automobile manufacturer, there is no good conscience reasoning that Tesla is unaware that active restraint and airbag systems of today are far more nuanced and weigh multiple criteria when deciding to deploy (as compared to initial/early implementations, which were essentially "if collision=true and speed >= X mph then deploy"). You can have a very significant incident (two that I've witnessed recently as a paramedic involved vehicles into stationary objects at ~30mph) without airbag deployment. But if that was a Tesla in FSD that hit something at 30mph and didn't deploy airbags, well, that's not an accident according to Tesla. That also doesn't account for "incident was so catastrophic that restraint systems could not deploy", also "not counted" by Tesla. Or just as egregious, "systems failed to deploy for any reason up to and including poor assembly line quality control", also not an accident and also "not counted".

Veserv 3y ago
As far as I can tell that has always been their reporting methodology. As can be seen in Column CV, SV (subject vehicle) Any Airbags Deployed?, around 90% of all reports have Tesla airbag deployment. I have not been able to find reliable information on airbag deployment rate in crashes, but it is nowhere near 90%, so the report distribution is statistically unlikely if that was not already their reporting methodology.

Uzza 3y ago

> In contrast, Tesla redacts all narrative and does not confirm injury severity. In over 700 cases, around 95% of their reports, they choose not to investigate whether an injury or fatality occurred. The primary reason why all those Tesla cases lack those details, is that they're reported basically immediately when they happen, because all Teslas are connected to the mothership and report back when it happens. The NHTSA page even explicitly points it out under the data limitations section, under "Incident Report Data May Be Incomplete or Unverified". > This means that a reporting entity with access to vehicle telemetry may quickly become aware of an air bag deployment incident subject to the General Order, but it may not become aware of all circumstances related to the crash, such as surface conditions, whether all passengers were belted, or whether an injury occurred. This is also the reason why Tesla are so overrepresented in the data. Almost no other automaker has connected cars, or are like the GM On-Star a subscription service that not everyone has. All other reports have to come in manually though actual crash investigations, which can take time. Or not happen at all if nobody thinks those systems might have had been activated/relevant. For example, a car using driver assist technology getting t-boned by a manually driven car at an intersection will likely not raise any alarms about automated systems during crash investigations. But for Tesla they're reported, because they immediately know those cars were in a crash. So in conclusion, as NHTSA has said, none of the data has been normalized, and lacks important contextual information to properly analyze it, and should thus not be used by itself to draw any conclusions.

JohnFen 3y ago
> Almost no other automaker has connected cars Wait, is this true for EVs? I've written off purchasing an EV entirely because I don't want a connected car and I thought they all were. If there are ones that aren't connected, that changes the equation quite a lot.
- Uzza 3y ago
  While I don't know about the details of what all the other EVs have, most of the legacy auto EVs model year 2020 and earlier were basically built on ICE platforms, and mostly have the same features except having an EV drivetrain. Many models coming out now are on new dedicated EV platforms, so you'd really have to check them to see what connectivity features they might have. Nothing about EVs require connectivity though, it's just Tesla that have caused a shift in direction in many other automakers.