3 ms·

Instead of Tesla trying FSD with vision only, they should try with more sensors and charge more for the extra hardware. They cannot beat laws of physics by just

by kappi 3y ago

Instead of Tesla trying FSD with vision only, they should try with more sensors and charge more for the extra hardware. They cannot beat laws of physics by just using vision.

endisneigh 3y ago
Though I agree with your point, i don’t think it’s impossible to do full self driving with vision and an intelligent agent only. that being said as far as I know the cameras they’re using aren’t good enough
- gruturo 3y ago
  It may not be impossible, but it may well be feasible only a good 5-15 years after it's successfully implemented with the assistance of LIDAR (or other technologies). LIDAR won't read the posted speed limit, it will only see the shape of the post. But it won't be blinded by reflections, it will never confuse the side of a truck with the sky, it won't miss an object or hole on the road due to poor contrast, etc. It's becoming very affordable, too.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    You can be an excellent driver even if you’re occasionally confused and blinded, etc. in my opinion the reason it doesn’t work today with vision is that it turns out more intelligence than musk thinks is required if you’re only using vision
    - pzo 3y ago
      also probably current cameras are not as great as human eyes - humans eyes are superior even to latest iphones pro. You still have to think about when taking photo e.g. Is the back lightning (sun) too aggressive ? Even HDR not always helps and all those processing still takes like ~1sec or more - with car driving at 100km/h you have to do such processing at 60fps minimum
    - nier 3y ago
      When I think back to the situations where I was blinded as a driver, I remember being able to help myself by blocking out the sun with my hand. This simple physical countermeasure is something that vision hardware currently cannot perform.
    - gruturo 3y ago
      I agree with you, and, furthermore: Why handicap yourself when there's an alternative? It used to be completely unaffordable for a mass produced sedan, so I could understand that, but 10 years later things have changed, and insisting on vision-only reeks of stubbornness and stupidity at this point.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  The "cameras" will never be good enough because the eyeball isn't a camera and has way more info to work with than just a 2D array of colors. For example, your brain has way better depth info than just parallax in most cases, as it gets info about what is required to keep a distant object in focus and aligned in both eyes. These two values will not ever available to fixed cameras and yet provide direct measurements of distance for your brain.
  - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    You also have memory to infer how fast an object is moving, and where it's trying to go, in contrast to the purely feed-forward neural networks Tesla uses.
jackmott42 3y ago
More hardware can improve reliability of a few things but doesn't address the fundamental problem, which is that Tesla FSD has no coherent way to deal with novel situations, which happen all the time when driving. IMHO we won't see "Go to sleep and drive somewhere" until there is something like a general reasoning neural net on top of the ones doing the object detection and physics and such. "That looks like a firetruck" says the object identication net, "but after reasoning about it, it is actually just a mural on the side of a building" And nobody knows how to build such a thing yet so it might be a long time.
stevehawk 3y ago
Well, they have a problem there. In 2016 they made a public statement where they claimed "all Teslas now have all of the hardware they will ever need to be full self driving." It was a blog post and key part of a lawsuit they lost. If they ever increase the hardware requirement for FSD then they'll have to retrofit every car made since that post.
- throwthat1 3y ago
  How is that a problem ? They could just increase the cost of FSD

by kappi 3y ago

Instead of Tesla trying FSD with vision only, they should try with more sensors and charge more for the extra hardware. They cannot beat laws of physics by just using vision.

endisneigh 3y ago

Though I agree with your point, i don’t think it’s impossible to do full self driving with vision and an intelligent agent only. that being said as far as I know the cameras they’re using aren’t good enough

gruturo 3y ago
It may not be impossible, but it may well be feasible only a good 5-15 years after it's successfully implemented with the assistance of LIDAR (or other technologies). LIDAR won't read the posted speed limit, it will only see the shape of the post. But it won't be blinded by reflections, it will never confuse the side of a truck with the sky, it won't miss an object or hole on the road due to poor contrast, etc. It's becoming very affordable, too.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  You can be an excellent driver even if you’re occasionally confused and blinded, etc. in my opinion the reason it doesn’t work today with vision is that it turns out more intelligence than musk thinks is required if you’re only using vision
  - pzo 3y ago
    also probably current cameras are not as great as human eyes - humans eyes are superior even to latest iphones pro. You still have to think about when taking photo e.g. Is the back lightning (sun) too aggressive ? Even HDR not always helps and all those processing still takes like ~1sec or more - with car driving at 100km/h you have to do such processing at 60fps minimum
  - nier 3y ago
    When I think back to the situations where I was blinded as a driver, I remember being able to help myself by blocking out the sun with my hand. This simple physical countermeasure is something that vision hardware currently cannot perform.
  - gruturo 3y ago
    I agree with you, and, furthermore: Why handicap yourself when there's an alternative? It used to be completely unaffordable for a mass produced sedan, so I could understand that, but 10 years later things have changed, and insisting on vision-only reeks of stubbornness and stupidity at this point.
mrguyorama 3y ago
The "cameras" will never be good enough because the eyeball isn't a camera and has way more info to work with than just a 2D array of colors. For example, your brain has way better depth info than just parallax in most cases, as it gets info about what is required to keep a distant object in focus and aligned in both eyes. These two values will not ever available to fixed cameras and yet provide direct measurements of distance for your brain.
- ProjectArcturis 3y ago
  You also have memory to infer how fast an object is moving, and where it's trying to go, in contrast to the purely feed-forward neural networks Tesla uses.

jackmott42 3y ago

More hardware can improve reliability of a few things but doesn't address the fundamental problem, which is that Tesla FSD has no coherent way to deal with novel situations, which happen all the time when driving. IMHO we won't see "Go to sleep and drive somewhere" until there is something like a general reasoning neural net on top of the ones doing the object detection and physics and such. "That looks like a firetruck" says the object identication net, "but after reasoning about it, it is actually just a mural on the side of a building" And nobody knows how to build such a thing yet so it might be a long time.

stevehawk 3y ago

Well, they have a problem there. In 2016 they made a public statement where they claimed "all Teslas now have all of the hardware they will ever need to be full self driving." It was a blog post and key part of a lawsuit they lost. If they ever increase the hardware requirement for FSD then they'll have to retrofit every car made since that post.

throwthat1 3y ago
How is that a problem ? They could just increase the cost of FSD