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One probably needs a bit of religiousity to be able to meditate as much as senior meditators do.

johndhi 3y ago
Yeah, that makes sense to me (as a somewhat religious meditator). I disagree that a focus on something other than logic is problematic, though. I'd actually argue that all-logic-all-the-time is a sickness.
- darthrupert 3y ago
  Yeah, I agree. In fact, even as an atheist, I believe humans in general have an innate drive towards religious thinking. If we suppress classic ways to those things, people will find new ones. And those new ones won't have gone through the test of time. I believe we are seeing the effects of this in many western countries.
haswell 3y ago
I think this is a misconception. I do think there’s a greater likelihood that someone with religious tendencies will pursue a path like this, but the religiosity is not the key. Sam Harris is the polar opposite of religious, but is arguably one of the leading meditators/teachers in western culture right now. I’m as allergic to religion as someone can probably be, but I’ve gotten serious about meditation and have made it a central habit in my life, because I’ve found that it works. The ultimate goal is to bring the “here-ness” of the present moment first experienced in meditation into ordinary waking moments as much as possible. Sitting is just a focused form of training that helps condition the mind and improve focus. When I discovered how impactful sitting was for me, it formed the motivation for deepening the practice. No religiosity here. The non-religious/non-sectarian meditators are a rapidly growing group, and this is encouraging because the religious part was never necessary, and the perception that it is kept people like me from exploring this sooner.
- johndhi 3y ago
  I suspect you just have a different definition of 'religious' than I do. Why are you so anti-religion?
  - haswell 3y ago
    That’s possible! But that’s also why I’m calling attention to it here. Religiosity is a negative signal for many folks, and I think it’s important to debunk the need for religious thinking to gain the benefits of meditation. My stance comes from growing up in an extreme fundamentalist religious bubble. It set me up for a lifetime of unwinding unhealthy beliefs and patterns of thought, not the least of which was deep confusion about my self worth when hearing leaders of the church openly discuss stoning gay people as the truly appropriate consequence biblically. That kinda fucks with your head when you’re coming to terms with your own sexuality (I’m bisexual). I’ve seen first hand what these systems of belief do to families and communities, and while I’m not one to claim that all religion is awful, I do think it’s a bigger problem than help in the current social climate. The ideas of most religions also set up a fundamental misconception about our relationship with the world/environment (that we’re separate from it) that is an existential threat to reaching some kind of environmental balance. I’m curious what religious means to you.
    - johndhi 3y ago
      Makes sense. Thanks for sharing! I personally think human beings need some kind of central spiritual belief or identity to feel satisfied/happy/whole. I'm not sure, but in your case, it almost sounds like you might be getting that identity from REJECTING the shitty religious bubble you grew up in. Sounds like you feel like you're on a good track and moving somewhere with your life -- even if it's away from religion. So I guess in my book, you're religious. >>I’ve seen first hand what these systems of belief do to families and communities, and while I’m not one to claim that all religion is awful, I do think it’s a bigger problem than help in the current social climate. For me, this is really case-by-case, but my suspicion is that most religion is generally better for people than no religion -- so I suspect I disagree with you, but on limited data. >>The ideas of most religions also set up a fundamental misconception about our relationship with the world/environment (that we’re separate from it) that is an existential threat to reaching some kind of environmental balance. Hadn't heard this one before - huh. I think there are a lot of reasons we burn coal but IMO the fact that we're religious isn't one of the main ones. To me, religion is a great path toward loving others and the world such that we'd want to conserve them and it.
nprateem 3y ago
I think you just need to find something in it that makes it worthwhile. Being a productive member of society is a choice, but not the only way someone could choose to spend their time. I think in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha the author says once someone makes real progress (reaching what he calls arising and passing away) people often feel drawn to meditate full time and may join a monastery. I probably would if I had sufficiently transformative insights that made society's goals seem pointless. I mean, you don't still play the same games or have the same goals as when you were 5. This is a process of realisation and maturity.
kagakuninja 3y ago
No, many of the meditation practices, such as Jhana and nirodha sammapati do not require any religious beliefs at all. Of course, the skeptic is unlikely to spend the vast amount of time needed to master such skills.
- darthrupert 3y ago
  Perhaps I wasn't clear. I mean to suggest that one needs faith in order to meditate that much. Faith that it's a worthwhile thing to do.

Yeah, that makes sense to me (as a somewhat religious meditator). I disagree that a focus on something other than logic is problematic, though. I'd actually argue that all-logic-all-the-time is a sickness.

darthrupert 3y ago
Yeah, I agree. In fact, even as an atheist, I believe humans in general have an innate drive towards religious thinking. If we suppress classic ways to those things, people will find new ones. And those new ones won't have gone through the test of time. I believe we are seeing the effects of this in many western countries.

haswell 3y ago

I think this is a misconception. I do think there’s a greater likelihood that someone with religious tendencies will pursue a path like this, but the religiosity is not the key. Sam Harris is the polar opposite of religious, but is arguably one of the leading meditators/teachers in western culture right now. I’m as allergic to religion as someone can probably be, but I’ve gotten serious about meditation and have made it a central habit in my life, because I’ve found that it works. The ultimate goal is to bring the “here-ness” of the present moment first experienced in meditation into ordinary waking moments as much as possible. Sitting is just a focused form of training that helps condition the mind and improve focus. When I discovered how impactful sitting was for me, it formed the motivation for deepening the practice. No religiosity here. The non-religious/non-sectarian meditators are a rapidly growing group, and this is encouraging because the religious part was never necessary, and the perception that it is kept people like me from exploring this sooner.

johndhi 3y ago
I suspect you just have a different definition of 'religious' than I do. Why are you so anti-religion?
- haswell 3y ago
  That’s possible! But that’s also why I’m calling attention to it here. Religiosity is a negative signal for many folks, and I think it’s important to debunk the need for religious thinking to gain the benefits of meditation. My stance comes from growing up in an extreme fundamentalist religious bubble. It set me up for a lifetime of unwinding unhealthy beliefs and patterns of thought, not the least of which was deep confusion about my self worth when hearing leaders of the church openly discuss stoning gay people as the truly appropriate consequence biblically. That kinda fucks with your head when you’re coming to terms with your own sexuality (I’m bisexual). I’ve seen first hand what these systems of belief do to families and communities, and while I’m not one to claim that all religion is awful, I do think it’s a bigger problem than help in the current social climate. The ideas of most religions also set up a fundamental misconception about our relationship with the world/environment (that we’re separate from it) that is an existential threat to reaching some kind of environmental balance. I’m curious what religious means to you.
  - johndhi 3y ago
    Makes sense. Thanks for sharing! I personally think human beings need some kind of central spiritual belief or identity to feel satisfied/happy/whole. I'm not sure, but in your case, it almost sounds like you might be getting that identity from REJECTING the shitty religious bubble you grew up in. Sounds like you feel like you're on a good track and moving somewhere with your life -- even if it's away from religion. So I guess in my book, you're religious. >>I’ve seen first hand what these systems of belief do to families and communities, and while I’m not one to claim that all religion is awful, I do think it’s a bigger problem than help in the current social climate. For me, this is really case-by-case, but my suspicion is that most religion is generally better for people than no religion -- so I suspect I disagree with you, but on limited data. >>The ideas of most religions also set up a fundamental misconception about our relationship with the world/environment (that we’re separate from it) that is an existential threat to reaching some kind of environmental balance. Hadn't heard this one before - huh. I think there are a lot of reasons we burn coal but IMO the fact that we're religious isn't one of the main ones. To me, religion is a great path toward loving others and the world such that we'd want to conserve them and it.

nprateem 3y ago

I think you just need to find something in it that makes it worthwhile. Being a productive member of society is a choice, but not the only way someone could choose to spend their time. I think in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha the author says once someone makes real progress (reaching what he calls arising and passing away) people often feel drawn to meditate full time and may join a monastery. I probably would if I had sufficiently transformative insights that made society's goals seem pointless. I mean, you don't still play the same games or have the same goals as when you were 5. This is a process of realisation and maturity.

kagakuninja 3y ago

No, many of the meditation practices, such as Jhana and nirodha sammapati do not require any religious beliefs at all. Of course, the skeptic is unlikely to spend the vast amount of time needed to master such skills.

darthrupert 3y ago
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I mean to suggest that one needs faith in order to meditate that much. Faith that it's a worthwhile thing to do.