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Ive had the FSD beta for about a month now and never once has it gotten me anywhere without a disengagement, and has several times very nearly caused a crash. I

Ive had the FSD beta for about a month now and never once has it gotten me anywhere without a disengagement, and has several times very nearly caused a crash. I know its anecdata but from all the youtube videos and press I was really expecting it to at least be half-way decent. At the moment its absolute rubbish and should not be allowed on the roads.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dzader 3y ago
I also have FSD beta and my model Y can't even get out of my neighborhood successfully. really wish I could get a refund.
- toast0 3y ago
  If I were in your shoes, I'd check w/ a lemon law attorney, and see what they think about using that to get a refund. After all, the car doesn't work as described.
  - throwaway54_56 3y ago
    I'm not a contract expert by any means, but this is what it says on the order page: "The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."
    - yomlica8 3y ago
      > The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. In other words, you can't rely on this until if becomes perfect. Which is meant to imply it is already almost perfect, but upon careful reading could also mean it doesn't work at all.
    - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
      The legal tension here is that the feature is called "Full Self Drive", which has the plain intuitive meaning that the car can drive itself. Adding a bunch of weasel language in the fine print may not absolve Tesla from the implicit promises it makes with the name.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      I think you could find a sympathetic judge: > The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers The fact that you are able to activate and use FSD (albeit not always well), implies, in Tesla's own words, that they've done this (otherwise it wouldn't be available for activation and use). > as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions These are the real weasel words, and Tesla likes to use them regularly, to imply pretty heavily to their fans that "this all works, but pesky regulators are keeping it out of your hands".
kappi 3y ago
Instead of Tesla trying FSD with vision only, they should try with more sensors and charge more for the extra hardware. They cannot beat laws of physics by just using vision.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Though I agree with your point, i don’t think it’s impossible to do full self driving with vision and an intelligent agent only. that being said as far as I know the cameras they’re using aren’t good enough
  - gruturo 3y ago
    It may not be impossible, but it may well be feasible only a good 5-15 years after it's successfully implemented with the assistance of LIDAR (or other technologies). LIDAR won't read the posted speed limit, it will only see the shape of the post. But it won't be blinded by reflections, it will never confuse the side of a truck with the sky, it won't miss an object or hole on the road due to poor contrast, etc. It's becoming very affordable, too.
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      You can be an excellent driver even if you’re occasionally confused and blinded, etc. in my opinion the reason it doesn’t work today with vision is that it turns out more intelligence than musk thinks is required if you’re only using vision
      - pzo 3y ago
        also probably current cameras are not as great as human eyes - humans eyes are superior even to latest iphones pro. You still have to think about when taking photo e.g. Is the back lightning (sun) too aggressive ? Even HDR not always helps and all those processing still takes like ~1sec or more - with car driving at 100km/h you have to do such processing at 60fps minimum
      - nier 3y ago
vecinu 3y ago
I wish I could find the other HN comments from the last few years but I have seen your exact comment from different people over the last 2 years. Why has nothing changed? If so many people are having problems, how is Tesla allowed to continue?
- gataca 3y ago
  Between controlling all manned US space flights and all communications allowing Ukraine to fight against Russia, Musk has a lot of influence and gov't doesn't want to ruffle any boats.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    This isn't really special to Musk. Feds have been largely hands off businesses for decades, basically jesus take the wheel is federal regulatory policy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
honeybadger1 3y ago
I have had both experiences. It has literally taken me all the way from Miami to Atlanta at least 6 times without issue and basically only disengaging when there is heavy road work spots and then I turn it back on. I have also used it to go from Miami to Key West 3 times back and fourth with almost no interaction other than road work situations. That being said, when I visited areas with very little road traffic like in central Florida or in country areas in Georgia, it is very hesitant and I can only assume because of the lack of training data. Simple things like left turns become overly hesitant or it goes into a middle turning lane thinking it's a new lane because the lines are rough or non-existent. I love using it for long trips, it has changed my quality of life when it comes to driving. I simply do not agree calling it 'rubbish' is fair at all and really is a gross oversimplification of it's faults in situations.
- rvnx 3y ago
  If you want to try something different for long roads, you can take a look at Mercedes cars. Not only they are very comfortable and reliable for such, but also the manufacturer takes the legal responsibility when level 3 mode is activated, whereas if you use a Tesla, it is always your responsibility. Means a lot.
  - honeybadger1 3y ago
    You presume too much on what I currently own and have owned. Tesla's software is far superior even with its weaknesses.
    - hcazz 3y ago
      Not going to assume what you have and haven't owned before, but your statement here is objectively false: >Tesla's software is far superior even with its weaknesses. https://www.engadget.com/mercedes-becomes-the-first-automaker-to-sell-level-3-self-driving-vehicles-in-california-103504319.html https://www.engadget.com/mercedes-becomes-the-first-automake... If Tesla's software was objectively better, why couldn't they get L3 approval in California?
moralestapia 3y ago
Waiting for the comment that goes like: "but if you compare FSD with drunk teenage drivers you still get a lower number of incidents" The point of tech is to improve the status quo significantly, not marginally. No one will use a calculator that is wrong 2% of the time. I know this is real life and no driver (AI or not) could perform perfectly, but AI should be WAY better than the average human driver instead of just merely equal to.
- yogurthewise 3y ago
  IDK, I would argue it is better than your average driver in a lot of cases. Not just "drunk teenagers." On my daily commute I constantly see people on their phone while driving, eating, probably too tired, etc. A couple times it has even reacted faster then I probably could and saved me when other drivers suddenly veer off. https://electrek.co/2019/10/23/tesla-autopilot-safety-9x-safer-than-average-driving/#:~:text=For%20more%20than%20a%20year,There%20are%20caveats%2C%20of%20course https://electrek.co/2019/10/23/tesla-autopilot-safety-9x-saf....
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    Thanks for fulfilling my prediction.
    - yogurthewise 3y ago
      any time ;)
olliej 3y ago
Well yes, because the sole reason for "fully engaged driver" is to shift fault to the "driver" rather than Tesla. Tesla's falsely named "full self driving" cannot drive the car safely so they say you always have to have a driver in control of the car, only that is demonstrably not compatible with human physiology, and again directly contradicts the name. We do not expect full attention from pilots in aircraft with autopilot, when they have potentially hundreds of lives under their control, but Tesla thinks it's ok to require that of car drivers and give them less time to respond to any sudden incident than a pilot has.
yogurthewise 3y ago
Are you talking about on the highway or roads with stoplights. Normally, I rarely have issues when using Auto Pilot on the highway. On all other roads though, it definitely isn't worth it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dzader 3y ago

I also have FSD beta and my model Y can't even get out of my neighborhood successfully. really wish I could get a refund.

toast0 3y ago
If I were in your shoes, I'd check w/ a lemon law attorney, and see what they think about using that to get a refund. After all, the car doesn't work as described.
- throwaway54_56 3y ago
  I'm not a contract expert by any means, but this is what it says on the order page: "The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."
  - yomlica8 3y ago
    > The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. In other words, you can't rely on this until if becomes perfect. Which is meant to imply it is already almost perfect, but upon careful reading could also mean it doesn't work at all.
  - ProjectArcturis 3y ago
    The legal tension here is that the feature is called "Full Self Drive", which has the plain intuitive meaning that the car can drive itself. Adding a bunch of weasel language in the fine print may not absolve Tesla from the implicit promises it makes with the name.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    I think you could find a sympathetic judge: > The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers The fact that you are able to activate and use FSD (albeit not always well), implies, in Tesla's own words, that they've done this (otherwise it wouldn't be available for activation and use). > as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions These are the real weasel words, and Tesla likes to use them regularly, to imply pretty heavily to their fans that "this all works, but pesky regulators are keeping it out of your hands".

kappi 3y ago

Instead of Tesla trying FSD with vision only, they should try with more sensors and charge more for the extra hardware. They cannot beat laws of physics by just using vision.

endisneigh 3y ago
Though I agree with your point, i don’t think it’s impossible to do full self driving with vision and an intelligent agent only. that being said as far as I know the cameras they’re using aren’t good enough
- gruturo 3y ago
  It may not be impossible, but it may well be feasible only a good 5-15 years after it's successfully implemented with the assistance of LIDAR (or other technologies). LIDAR won't read the posted speed limit, it will only see the shape of the post. But it won't be blinded by reflections, it will never confuse the side of a truck with the sky, it won't miss an object or hole on the road due to poor contrast, etc. It's becoming very affordable, too.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    You can be an excellent driver even if you’re occasionally confused and blinded, etc. in my opinion the reason it doesn’t work today with vision is that it turns out more intelligence than musk thinks is required if you’re only using vision
    - pzo 3y ago
      also probably current cameras are not as great as human eyes - humans eyes are superior even to latest iphones pro. You still have to think about when taking photo e.g. Is the back lightning (sun) too aggressive ? Even HDR not always helps and all those processing still takes like ~1sec or more - with car driving at 100km/h you have to do such processing at 60fps minimum
    - nier 3y ago

vecinu 3y ago

I wish I could find the other HN comments from the last few years but I have seen your exact comment from different people over the last 2 years. Why has nothing changed? If so many people are having problems, how is Tesla allowed to continue?

gataca 3y ago
Between controlling all manned US space flights and all communications allowing Ukraine to fight against Russia, Musk has a lot of influence and gov't doesn't want to ruffle any boats.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  This isn't really special to Musk. Feds have been largely hands off businesses for decades, basically jesus take the wheel is federal regulatory policy.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

honeybadger1 3y ago

I have had both experiences. It has literally taken me all the way from Miami to Atlanta at least 6 times without issue and basically only disengaging when there is heavy road work spots and then I turn it back on. I have also used it to go from Miami to Key West 3 times back and fourth with almost no interaction other than road work situations. That being said, when I visited areas with very little road traffic like in central Florida or in country areas in Georgia, it is very hesitant and I can only assume because of the lack of training data. Simple things like left turns become overly hesitant or it goes into a middle turning lane thinking it's a new lane because the lines are rough or non-existent. I love using it for long trips, it has changed my quality of life when it comes to driving. I simply do not agree calling it 'rubbish' is fair at all and really is a gross oversimplification of it's faults in situations.

rvnx 3y ago
If you want to try something different for long roads, you can take a look at Mercedes cars. Not only they are very comfortable and reliable for such, but also the manufacturer takes the legal responsibility when level 3 mode is activated, whereas if you use a Tesla, it is always your responsibility. Means a lot.
- honeybadger1 3y ago
  You presume too much on what I currently own and have owned. Tesla's software is far superior even with its weaknesses.
  - hcazz 3y ago
    Not going to assume what you have and haven't owned before, but your statement here is objectively false: >Tesla's software is far superior even with its weaknesses. https://www.engadget.com/mercedes-becomes-the-first-automaker-to-sell-level-3-self-driving-vehicles-in-california-103504319.html https://www.engadget.com/mercedes-becomes-the-first-automake... If Tesla's software was objectively better, why couldn't they get L3 approval in California?

moralestapia 3y ago

Waiting for the comment that goes like: "but if you compare FSD with drunk teenage drivers you still get a lower number of incidents" The point of tech is to improve the status quo significantly, not marginally. No one will use a calculator that is wrong 2% of the time. I know this is real life and no driver (AI or not) could perform perfectly, but AI should be WAY better than the average human driver instead of just merely equal to.

yogurthewise 3y ago
IDK, I would argue it is better than your average driver in a lot of cases. Not just "drunk teenagers." On my daily commute I constantly see people on their phone while driving, eating, probably too tired, etc. A couple times it has even reacted faster then I probably could and saved me when other drivers suddenly veer off. https://electrek.co/2019/10/23/tesla-autopilot-safety-9x-safer-than-average-driving/#:~:text=For%20more%20than%20a%20year,There%20are%20caveats%2C%20of%20course https://electrek.co/2019/10/23/tesla-autopilot-safety-9x-saf....
- moralestapia 3y ago
  Thanks for fulfilling my prediction.
  - yogurthewise 3y ago
    any time ;)

olliej 3y ago

Well yes, because the sole reason for "fully engaged driver" is to shift fault to the "driver" rather than Tesla. Tesla's falsely named "full self driving" cannot drive the car safely so they say you always have to have a driver in control of the car, only that is demonstrably not compatible with human physiology, and again directly contradicts the name. We do not expect full attention from pilots in aircraft with autopilot, when they have potentially hundreds of lives under their control, but Tesla thinks it's ok to require that of car drivers and give them less time to respond to any sudden incident than a pilot has.

yogurthewise 3y ago

Are you talking about on the highway or roads with stoplights. Normally, I rarely have issues when using Auto Pilot on the highway. On all other roads though, it definitely isn't worth it.