6 ms·

Ppl with mental disorders shouldn't meditate more than 20 min/day

by aszantu 3y ago

k__ 3y ago
How come? I had the impression, people with mental disorders would profit the most from it.
- nick__m 3y ago
  Mostly because longer meditation practice is more frequently associated with something called the dark night of the soul https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-...
  - notfed 3y ago
    "Mental disorders" is overly broad. It sounds like we're talking schizophrenia here.
wussboy 3y ago
Why? How would you know?
clsec 3y ago
Citation please!
- jossclimb 3y ago
  Not OP, but it happened to me. Started meditation to deal with anxiety and the introspection that came with it, ended up with me on the verge of a complete breakdown. I started off doing Sam Harris and then progressed to doing an hour or more each day. I had some moments of insight and then hit some dark night of the soul which wrecked me, I was close to admitting myself to hospital for psychological help. What fixed me was finally reading Breath by James Nestor and how you breath has a direct impact on the parasympathetic / sympathetic nervous system. I learned to take long slow breaths into the diaphragm and too nose breath all of the time. Basically my vagus nerve was fried from burn out and being in the fight flight mode of the parasympathetic system, as opposed to the 'rest and digest' chilled nature of sympathetic nervous system. My own view now, is that mediation should not be attempted (at least by anyone with mental issues) until the parasympathetic / sympathetic system is balanced and stress is significantly reduced. This should start with the breath. https://www.vice.com/en/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-powerful-mental-tool-and-for-some-it-goes-terribly-wrong https://www.vice.com/en/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-power...
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    I feel like you did the wrong sort of meditation for anxiety. Mindfulness and breathing where you see the thought come and let it go is preferred for anxiety sufferers. You should not be following your anxious thoughts. I could see how it would affect you negatively if you tried to follow all your anxious thoughts and delve into their "meaning". The goal for some with high anxiety ought to be lessening its meaning. You should just see it as another emotion with a neutral (or even helpful at times) stance. You don't lessen anxiety by giving it MORE attention. That seems like it would train your brain to think it's way too important and you'd get stuck in an anxiety loop.
    - jules22 3y ago
      The thing is, these "No true Scotsman" justifications only come out later. Despite significant literature on meditation psychosis, meditation is promoted as a completely safe practice and risks are almost never mentioned to new practitioners.
      - uoaei 3y ago
        TBH all I'm seeing are straw man arguments from you. It sounds like you have not given any time to a truly good-faith exploration of these methods, instead leaning on vague impressions based on only the most incidental and bottom-of-the-barrel evidence.
        jules22 3y ago
        > sounds like you have not given any time to a truly good-faith exploration of these methods To me, this is just a variation of "never mind the science, why don't you try for yourself" argument you find in quackery. I found a disconnect between what people were reporting and actual behavior in meditators. > only the most incidental and bottom-of-the-barrel evidence. Are scholarly reports of psychosis bottom of the barrel or are testimonials from meditators the bottom of the barrel? Perhaps next, you want to make an argument from popularity? You might just be completely unfamiliar with the emerging scholarly literature on the topic. Lambert, D., N. H. van den Berg, and A. Mendrek. "Adverse effects of meditation: A review of observational, experimental and case studies." Current Psychology (2021): 1-14.
Jimpulse 3y ago
To maybe add a helpful analogy. Some meditative states aren't very different that an intense dose of psychedelics. Not to mention the person is "dosed" without expecting it. If it's done unsupervised or without a support system such as a guide or teacher, the experience can be traumatic.
DueDilligence 3y ago
[dead]

Ppl with mental disorders shouldn't meditate more than 20 min/day

k__ 3y ago

How come? I had the impression, people with mental disorders would profit the most from it.

nick__m 3y ago
Mostly because longer meditation practice is more frequently associated with something called the dark night of the soul https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-...
- notfed 3y ago
  "Mental disorders" is overly broad. It sounds like we're talking schizophrenia here.

wussboy 3y ago

Why? How would you know?

clsec 3y ago

Citation please!

jossclimb 3y ago
Not OP, but it happened to me. Started meditation to deal with anxiety and the introspection that came with it, ended up with me on the verge of a complete breakdown. I started off doing Sam Harris and then progressed to doing an hour or more each day. I had some moments of insight and then hit some dark night of the soul which wrecked me, I was close to admitting myself to hospital for psychological help. What fixed me was finally reading Breath by James Nestor and how you breath has a direct impact on the parasympathetic / sympathetic nervous system. I learned to take long slow breaths into the diaphragm and too nose breath all of the time. Basically my vagus nerve was fried from burn out and being in the fight flight mode of the parasympathetic system, as opposed to the 'rest and digest' chilled nature of sympathetic nervous system. My own view now, is that mediation should not be attempted (at least by anyone with mental issues) until the parasympathetic / sympathetic system is balanced and stress is significantly reduced. This should start with the breath. https://www.vice.com/en/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-powerful-mental-tool-and-for-some-it-goes-terribly-wrong https://www.vice.com/en/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-power...
- DrThunder 3y ago
  I feel like you did the wrong sort of meditation for anxiety. Mindfulness and breathing where you see the thought come and let it go is preferred for anxiety sufferers. You should not be following your anxious thoughts. I could see how it would affect you negatively if you tried to follow all your anxious thoughts and delve into their "meaning". The goal for some with high anxiety ought to be lessening its meaning. You should just see it as another emotion with a neutral (or even helpful at times) stance. You don't lessen anxiety by giving it MORE attention. That seems like it would train your brain to think it's way too important and you'd get stuck in an anxiety loop.
  - jules22 3y ago
    The thing is, these "No true Scotsman" justifications only come out later. Despite significant literature on meditation psychosis, meditation is promoted as a completely safe practice and risks are almost never mentioned to new practitioners.
    - uoaei 3y ago
      TBH all I'm seeing are straw man arguments from you. It sounds like you have not given any time to a truly good-faith exploration of these methods, instead leaning on vague impressions based on only the most incidental and bottom-of-the-barrel evidence.
      - jules22 3y ago
        > sounds like you have not given any time to a truly good-faith exploration of these methods To me, this is just a variation of "never mind the science, why don't you try for yourself" argument you find in quackery. I found a disconnect between what people were reporting and actual behavior in meditators. > only the most incidental and bottom-of-the-barrel evidence. Are scholarly reports of psychosis bottom of the barrel or are testimonials from meditators the bottom of the barrel? Perhaps next, you want to make an argument from popularity? You might just be completely unfamiliar with the emerging scholarly literature on the topic. Lambert, D., N. H. van den Berg, and A. Mendrek. "Adverse effects of meditation: A review of observational, experimental and case studies." Current Psychology (2021): 1-14.

Jimpulse 3y ago

To maybe add a helpful analogy. Some meditative states aren't very different that an intense dose of psychedelics. Not to mention the person is "dosed" without expecting it. If it's done unsupervised or without a support system such as a guide or teacher, the experience can be traumatic.

DueDilligence 3y ago

[dead]