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Little google search I found this guy. https://www.exploringtheproblemspace.com/new-blog/2018/2/18/observing-mindfulness-and-then-getting-bored-by-it https://w

Little google search I found this guy. https://www.exploringtheproblemspace.com/new-blog/2018/2/18/observing-mindfulness-and-then-getting-bored-by-it https://www.exploringtheproblemspace.com/new-blog/2018/2/18/... To conclude that, Jon Kabat-Zinn, the "scientist" quoted in the article is just pure pseudoscience.

0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago
The science giveth and the science taketh away then I guess. Is it scientific to see if he has helped anyone with chronic pain?
DueDilligence 3y ago
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carabiner 3y ago
He's got a PhD from MIT in molecular biology. So nothing to do with meditation or neuroscience. But he was a scientist for a while. Now he's emeritus.
- jules22 3y ago
  Brian Josephson won his Nobel and then got into transcendental meditation. He was talking pseudoscience since. It does not take away from him that he is a smart man, but it seems to have effected his rationality quite a bit. I know some meditating academics. They all have this tendency to irrationality.
  - carabiner 3y ago
    I think you can compare meditation to the field of "medicine" or "diet." There are cranks and pseudoscience in there too, but I wouldn't write off the whole field as irrational. It's got a semantic problem too. If more people called it "mindfulness" or "focus practice" that would be more accurate for how most normal, secular people meditate. Maybe even calling it meditation vs. alternative meditation (like alternative medicine). LOTS of different forms of meditation, and not all I think are worthwhile. Some are better than others. TM seems like a total scam/fake though, just like chiropractic, astrology, juice cleanses etc.
    - jules22 3y ago
      Yes, TM variants are the popular ones here, not vipassana or mindfulness. I do think it is the most harmful one. I haven't seen harm in mindfulness yet. It is best not to discuss meditation under 1 tent. I prefer your terms.
ryanwaggoner 3y ago
What? A random blog post that is nothing more than a word salad of the blogger's filenames for their notes on Kabat-Zinn's book was enough to make you conclude that he's not a real scientist and just peddling pseudoscience? Sounds like your own standard of evidence isn't much higher than pseudoscience.
- akasakahakada 3y ago
  You should click into the category and see there is literally ~100 blog posts about the issue.
  - ryanwaggoner 3y ago
    Oh, I did, because I assumed there surely had to be more to your critique than just this list of filenames. I only scanned a few posts, but it appears to be an old anonymous blog with disjointed musings about why the author finds mindfulness "annoying". I didn't see anything to convince me that this is worth digging into further, like for example: a really cogent argument, or some research, or any kind of background in anything remotely related, etc. So I'm still unclear on what made you conclude from this random blog that Kabat-Zinn is just peddling pseudoscience. It honestly sounds like you're just anti-mindfulness, which isn't inherently a bad thing. I don't think we should have sacred cows, and there may be valid anti-mindfulness arguments from serious people out there. But drawing conclusions based on this particular blog makes it seem like you're not interested in figuring out what's true (ie, science) as much as finding justification to support your pre-existing position, regardless of the evidence (ie, pseudoscience).
FollowingTheDao 3y ago
Thank you. Jon Kabat-Zinn is a con artist and wanna be guru. It is easy to be calm when you are not homeless and disabled living with a chronic illness.

0xdeadbeefbabe 3y ago

The science giveth and the science taketh away then I guess. Is it scientific to see if he has helped anyone with chronic pain?

DueDilligence 3y ago

[dead]

carabiner 3y ago

He's got a PhD from MIT in molecular biology. So nothing to do with meditation or neuroscience. But he was a scientist for a while. Now he's emeritus.

jules22 3y ago
Brian Josephson won his Nobel and then got into transcendental meditation. He was talking pseudoscience since. It does not take away from him that he is a smart man, but it seems to have effected his rationality quite a bit. I know some meditating academics. They all have this tendency to irrationality.
- carabiner 3y ago
  I think you can compare meditation to the field of "medicine" or "diet." There are cranks and pseudoscience in there too, but I wouldn't write off the whole field as irrational. It's got a semantic problem too. If more people called it "mindfulness" or "focus practice" that would be more accurate for how most normal, secular people meditate. Maybe even calling it meditation vs. alternative meditation (like alternative medicine). LOTS of different forms of meditation, and not all I think are worthwhile. Some are better than others. TM seems like a total scam/fake though, just like chiropractic, astrology, juice cleanses etc.
  - jules22 3y ago
    Yes, TM variants are the popular ones here, not vipassana or mindfulness. I do think it is the most harmful one. I haven't seen harm in mindfulness yet. It is best not to discuss meditation under 1 tent. I prefer your terms.

ryanwaggoner 3y ago

What? A random blog post that is nothing more than a word salad of the blogger's filenames for their notes on Kabat-Zinn's book was enough to make you conclude that he's not a real scientist and just peddling pseudoscience? Sounds like your own standard of evidence isn't much higher than pseudoscience.

akasakahakada 3y ago
You should click into the category and see there is literally ~100 blog posts about the issue.
- ryanwaggoner 3y ago
  Oh, I did, because I assumed there surely had to be more to your critique than just this list of filenames. I only scanned a few posts, but it appears to be an old anonymous blog with disjointed musings about why the author finds mindfulness "annoying". I didn't see anything to convince me that this is worth digging into further, like for example: a really cogent argument, or some research, or any kind of background in anything remotely related, etc. So I'm still unclear on what made you conclude from this random blog that Kabat-Zinn is just peddling pseudoscience. It honestly sounds like you're just anti-mindfulness, which isn't inherently a bad thing. I don't think we should have sacred cows, and there may be valid anti-mindfulness arguments from serious people out there. But drawing conclusions based on this particular blog makes it seem like you're not interested in figuring out what's true (ie, science) as much as finding justification to support your pre-existing position, regardless of the evidence (ie, pseudoscience).

FollowingTheDao 3y ago

Thank you. Jon Kabat-Zinn is a con artist and wanna be guru. It is easy to be calm when you are not homeless and disabled living with a chronic illness.