6 ms·

> Given that wealthy countries like the US aren’t exactly riding trend lines toward new peaks of mental health (depression rates in American adults are at an al

> Given that wealthy countries like the US aren’t exactly riding trend lines toward new peaks of mental health (depression rates in American adults are at an all-time high, while young people appear in the grips of a mental health crisis), scalable ways of not just mindfully soothing, but completely re-creating psychological experiences for the better should set off sirens of general, scientific, and funding intrigue. I was all ready to criticize this, but the article pretty much sums up my feelings: > Critics call it “McMindfulness,” a capitalist perversion of meditation that deals with stress by focusing inward on the breath, rather than outward on the social structures that cause so much of that stress. I'm all for finding ways for people to improve their mental health and become more resilient to their suffering. But I can't help but feel the recent societal interest in meditation and psychedelics is wrongheaded in that it's treating a symptom rather than a cause. There's also a part of me that resists the "capitalization" of these tools for mental introspection. It feels, in some way, to be missing the point. That said, I'm not sure that resistance is correctly targeted. Why shouldn't someone be able to make money by providing people with tools to improve their lives? Is that thought a silly purity spiral, leaving scraps of potential well-being on the table just because the packaging is too slick? But still, there's something about it that feels off to me, as though there's something that's lost when we package all this ancient, hard-won wisdom into a smartphone app whose notifications to you will sit right next to the latest Elon Musk tweet.

samstave 3y ago
The morbid, but critically true, reality is that there are different humans. There are Takers, Givers, Neutral. We are ruled by Takers. (service to self, as opposed to service of others) Which is a core tenant of meditation (service to others) We as a Humanity will not heal until we can kill the Takers Archetype in the psyche. Thus why meditation helps. But literally - the Takers who are the "they" or "TPTB" are so fn broken, that changing that psychological worm is extremely difficult - and its a self-defending psychosis that spans generations and is hard to qwell. - EDIT because of the 'posting too fast rule (lame)' ;; -- Mayan word ;; "In Lak'ech" 'I am another Yourself'
- ericjmorey 3y ago
  > Which is a core tenant of meditation (service to others) It always seemed the opposite to me. One meditates for ones self.
  - beedeebeedee 3y ago
    >> Which is a core tenant of meditation (service to others) > It always seemed the opposite to me. One meditates for ones self. And in the process, like in Kant's practical reason, we recognize not only our selves, but see other selves like us in the world. There's no contradiction
  - malauxyeux 3y ago
    With the caveat that any discussion of meditation is fraught with "no true Scotsmans" and hypotheticals ... Something that the American Theravadin Thanissaro Bhikkhu says is that meditation is "for my own benefit and the benefit of those around me." E.g., during a disagreement with someone, you remain calm and avoid giving the other person a "piece of your mind". The other person doesn't have to deal with the "piece of your mind", which is to their benefit.
- deprecative 3y ago
  We like takers. We hate givers.
lcuff 3y ago
> I can't help but feel the recent societal interest in meditation and psychedelics is wrongheaded in that it's treating a symptom rather than a cause. I agree, but the question emerges "what is treatable?" Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual: I can't unelect politicians I disagree with, clean up the air where I live, or make the roads I travel significantly less clogged with traffic. But I can change my reactions to these. Thich Nhat Hanh taught people 'to consider every red traffic light a Bodhisattva, teaching us to "stop and be here now"'. An individual can treat SOME causes: Disconnect from Twitter and nightly TV news, and if that's what you mean, I agree with you even more strongly. But for larger realities, "the social structures that cause so much of the stress", no immediate solutions are available to the individual. Stress reduction is a good way to go.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  > Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual The counterpoint is essentially that if people engaged in social outward-looking collective action, as opposed to solitary inward-looking meditation, then you can change the world -- as has been demonstrated countless times. You certainly can unelect politicians in the next election. Environmental movements have made gigantic progress towards cleaning up the air. And congestion pricing is starting to spread as the solution for cities to reduce traffic, and it works. As an individual you probably won't be the single tipping point. But collective action happens because lots of individuals work together, and it requires all of those individuals. But it requires more than changing your reactions, it requires collective action.
  - oatmeal1 3y ago
    Where do people get the energy to take outward collective action if they are bogged down by stress and frivolous thoughts? I see meditation and/or psychedelics as the only way to get people to do pro-societal things, above individualistic things that are not thoughtful uses of time.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
crawfordcomeaux 3y ago
The MAPS conference (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) was protested by indigenous people for colonizing their medicine practices. Their point was about what you're touching on here: These tools were developed to address the problems of the world, not to play into the individualization of collective harm. They were for helping the world, not simply self. A great test of whether or not these methods are colonized: does one come away with the ability to envision decolonial anticapitalist ways forward and then choose to enact them? If not, probably colonized medicine. Decontextualized wisdom is a form of ignorance and typically leads to harm.
d3ckard 3y ago
I agree. I personally think it's about the world becoming more and more uncertain. Everybody is supposed to switch careers a bunch of times during lifetime, everybody is expected to push their limits, everybody is expected to stay on top ever changing social norms. It's just too much pressure. There is very little average Joe can do to have a fairly sure good living. While the system has a lot of opportunities for talented people, just getting by on working hard, being punctual, trustworthy and such, is increasingly hard. As lord Vetinari says, people mostly don't want tomorrow to be better - they want it to be the same. It's more and more unlikely nowadays.
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  Yup, I've pretty much become a hermit because I can't be bothered to keep up with the ever-changing social norms (which if you breach, you get the harshest consequences including social exclusion, public shaming and "consequences"), ever-changing popular culture and ever-changing everything.
beardedmoose 3y ago
> Critics call it “McMindfulness" I am both amused and disgusted by this term. Why does everything nowadays have to generate profit or else it's worthless? I'd like to get off this capitalist roller coaster please. As an adult with ADHD meditation is helping me greatly with some of my executive functions. That being said I don't use any apps as I despise my cell phone in general; It's just a constant stream of micro-aggressions and distractions.
- csallen 3y ago
  The world isn't so bad. You might just need a perspective shift. A huge number of regular human activities and interactions don't generate profit, and yet aren't considered worthless. Go play an intramural sport, or take a walk with a friend, or read a book to a niece or nephew, or spark up a chat at a coffee shop, or hell, comment on Hacker News. The vast number of capitalist activities and goings on aren't so bad either. I look out my window and walk through the world, and I see a society chock full of people working to provide useful things and services to others in society who find it valuable. Which is amazing. And it's profit that enables people to do this much of the time.
  - beardedmoose 3y ago
    To elaborate further my comment also stems from articles referring to things like this being a $50 billion dollar industry. A lot of services or goods are described as such like we are all just dollar signs. I also play airsoft, walk twice a week with a friend and spend time with my children. Those are all great things and I like your optimism... However I disagree that our capitalist society is a good thing, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Nobody gets to be a billionaire without exploiting the working class.
    - csallen 3y ago
      I really don't think the poor are getting poorer. Would you rather be poor today, poor 50 years ago, or poor 100 years ago? I would choose today. Because a capitalist society facilitates investment into new technologies, whose prices tend to fall dramatically over time, thus becoming available to all, and improving the lives of all. You can be poor today, and still own a smartphone, a laptop, a TV, internet, a home with central air and heating, a car, and even get healthcare. If we're focus our perspectives on the gap between rich and poor, there's reason to be upset. But why should that gap matter for any of us in our own personal lives? Jeff Bezos owning a yacht and a mansion doesn't make me any less happy about my car and my apartment.
freilanzer 3y ago
> But I can't help but feel the recent societal interest in meditation and psychedelics is wrongheaded in that it's treating a symptom rather than a cause. Yet, if you cannot treat the illness treating the symptom is better than nothing.

samstave 3y ago

The morbid, but critically true, reality is that there are different humans. There are Takers, Givers, Neutral. We are ruled by Takers. (service to self, as opposed to service of others) Which is a core tenant of meditation (service to others) We as a Humanity will not heal until we can kill the Takers Archetype in the psyche. Thus why meditation helps. But literally - the Takers who are the "they" or "TPTB" are so fn broken, that changing that psychological worm is extremely difficult - and its a self-defending psychosis that spans generations and is hard to qwell. - EDIT because of the 'posting too fast rule (lame)' ;; -- Mayan word ;; "In Lak'ech" 'I am another Yourself'

ericjmorey 3y ago
> Which is a core tenant of meditation (service to others) It always seemed the opposite to me. One meditates for ones self.
- beedeebeedee 3y ago
  >> Which is a core tenant of meditation (service to others) > It always seemed the opposite to me. One meditates for ones self. And in the process, like in Kant's practical reason, we recognize not only our selves, but see other selves like us in the world. There's no contradiction
- malauxyeux 3y ago
  With the caveat that any discussion of meditation is fraught with "no true Scotsmans" and hypotheticals ... Something that the American Theravadin Thanissaro Bhikkhu says is that meditation is "for my own benefit and the benefit of those around me." E.g., during a disagreement with someone, you remain calm and avoid giving the other person a "piece of your mind". The other person doesn't have to deal with the "piece of your mind", which is to their benefit.
deprecative 3y ago
We like takers. We hate givers.

lcuff 3y ago

> I can't help but feel the recent societal interest in meditation and psychedelics is wrongheaded in that it's treating a symptom rather than a cause. I agree, but the question emerges "what is treatable?" Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual: I can't unelect politicians I disagree with, clean up the air where I live, or make the roads I travel significantly less clogged with traffic. But I can change my reactions to these. Thich Nhat Hanh taught people 'to consider every red traffic light a Bodhisattva, teaching us to "stop and be here now"'. An individual can treat SOME causes: Disconnect from Twitter and nightly TV news, and if that's what you mean, I agree with you even more strongly. But for larger realities, "the social structures that cause so much of the stress", no immediate solutions are available to the individual. Stress reduction is a good way to go.

crazygringo 3y ago
> Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual The counterpoint is essentially that if people engaged in social outward-looking collective action, as opposed to solitary inward-looking meditation, then you can change the world -- as has been demonstrated countless times. You certainly can unelect politicians in the next election. Environmental movements have made gigantic progress towards cleaning up the air. And congestion pricing is starting to spread as the solution for cities to reduce traffic, and it works. As an individual you probably won't be the single tipping point. But collective action happens because lots of individuals work together, and it requires all of those individuals. But it requires more than changing your reactions, it requires collective action.
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  Where do people get the energy to take outward collective action if they are bogged down by stress and frivolous thoughts? I see meditation and/or psychedelics as the only way to get people to do pro-societal things, above individualistic things that are not thoughtful uses of time.
  - crazygringo 3y ago

crawfordcomeaux 3y ago

The MAPS conference (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) was protested by indigenous people for colonizing their medicine practices. Their point was about what you're touching on here: These tools were developed to address the problems of the world, not to play into the individualization of collective harm. They were for helping the world, not simply self. A great test of whether or not these methods are colonized: does one come away with the ability to envision decolonial anticapitalist ways forward and then choose to enact them? If not, probably colonized medicine. Decontextualized wisdom is a form of ignorance and typically leads to harm.

d3ckard 3y ago

I agree. I personally think it's about the world becoming more and more uncertain. Everybody is supposed to switch careers a bunch of times during lifetime, everybody is expected to push their limits, everybody is expected to stay on top ever changing social norms. It's just too much pressure. There is very little average Joe can do to have a fairly sure good living. While the system has a lot of opportunities for talented people, just getting by on working hard, being punctual, trustworthy and such, is increasingly hard. As lord Vetinari says, people mostly don't want tomorrow to be better - they want it to be the same. It's more and more unlikely nowadays.

Pannoniae 3y ago
Yup, I've pretty much become a hermit because I can't be bothered to keep up with the ever-changing social norms (which if you breach, you get the harshest consequences including social exclusion, public shaming and "consequences"), ever-changing popular culture and ever-changing everything.

beardedmoose 3y ago

> Critics call it “McMindfulness" I am both amused and disgusted by this term. Why does everything nowadays have to generate profit or else it's worthless? I'd like to get off this capitalist roller coaster please. As an adult with ADHD meditation is helping me greatly with some of my executive functions. That being said I don't use any apps as I despise my cell phone in general; It's just a constant stream of micro-aggressions and distractions.

csallen 3y ago
The world isn't so bad. You might just need a perspective shift. A huge number of regular human activities and interactions don't generate profit, and yet aren't considered worthless. Go play an intramural sport, or take a walk with a friend, or read a book to a niece or nephew, or spark up a chat at a coffee shop, or hell, comment on Hacker News. The vast number of capitalist activities and goings on aren't so bad either. I look out my window and walk through the world, and I see a society chock full of people working to provide useful things and services to others in society who find it valuable. Which is amazing. And it's profit that enables people to do this much of the time.
- beardedmoose 3y ago
  To elaborate further my comment also stems from articles referring to things like this being a $50 billion dollar industry. A lot of services or goods are described as such like we are all just dollar signs. I also play airsoft, walk twice a week with a friend and spend time with my children. Those are all great things and I like your optimism... However I disagree that our capitalist society is a good thing, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Nobody gets to be a billionaire without exploiting the working class.
  - csallen 3y ago
    I really don't think the poor are getting poorer. Would you rather be poor today, poor 50 years ago, or poor 100 years ago? I would choose today. Because a capitalist society facilitates investment into new technologies, whose prices tend to fall dramatically over time, thus becoming available to all, and improving the lives of all. You can be poor today, and still own a smartphone, a laptop, a TV, internet, a home with central air and heating, a car, and even get healthcare. If we're focus our perspectives on the gap between rich and poor, there's reason to be upset. But why should that gap matter for any of us in our own personal lives? Jeff Bezos owning a yacht and a mansion doesn't make me any less happy about my car and my apartment.

freilanzer 3y ago

> But I can't help but feel the recent societal interest in meditation and psychedelics is wrongheaded in that it's treating a symptom rather than a cause. Yet, if you cannot treat the illness treating the symptom is better than nothing.