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During a hot war, it’s reasonable to be more concerned about enemy surveillance than domestic surveillance. In either case, you lose some privacy. But enemy sur

by tlb 3y ago

During a hot war, it’s reasonable to be more concerned about enemy surveillance than domestic surveillance. In either case, you lose some privacy. But enemy surveillance can cause you to lose the war, or at least for more people to die before winning. We aren’t at war with China, but the possibility is taken seriously by the US foreign policy establishment, which knows more about the situation that you or I do. The most reliable way to avoid war is to be impossible to beat. So preempting the ability of potential enemies to collect data about our citizens reduces the chance of war.

che_shirecat 3y ago
What did the US foreign policy establishment know about Afghanistan and Iraq than you or I do? Last I heard from reliable sources, Iraq had WMD's and were a clear and present danger? Why not just preempt China's nuclear capability too by nuking them?
- bee_rider 3y ago
  I think you are just making a rhetorical flourish, but we should be clear that Iraq didn’t have WMDs, wasn’t an urgent danger, and any sources that said they did should not be treated as reliable.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > any sources that said they did should not be treated as reliable. American GEOINT, MASINT, SIGINT and TECHINT are likely the best in the world. American HUMINT, OSINT and--somewhat paradoxically--FININT are atrocious. Unfortunately, we frequently ascribe confidence intervals to our clandestine services based on experience with e.g. the NRO.
    - yonaguska 3y ago
      They might be the best in the world- but it doesn't matter because they don't answer to citizens. I trust that they have good information- I don't trust that good information gets to us, our politicians, etc.
- triceratops 3y ago
  > What did the US foreign policy establishment know about Afghanistan That Osama was hiding there. Which he was, at the time. And that he had carried out 9/11. Which he did. The Irag and Afghanistan wars were not the same. Practically everyone supported the US in Afghanistan. Practically no one followed the US into Iraq.
vasco 3y ago
I agree with this stance, it's naive to think that countries wouldn't prefer to block others from having as much information about their own citizens than themselves. This just seems like a reasonable position any government would adopt and defensive in nature as you point out. The discussion then can be on where you set the privacy bar for each case: - your country spying on your own citizens - your country spying on foreign citizens - other countries ability to spy on your own citizens
karaterobot 3y ago
We don't do hot wars anymore, and peace is just (to paraphrase Paul Valéry) the period during which you wage war by other means. We're definitely in a conflict with China, it's just not a gun-based conflict.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  > We don't do hot wars anymore Afghanistan? The Iraq War? The people we drone strike every day?
  - waffleiron 3y ago
    Current hot "interventions" for those interested: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_t... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention_in_Niger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention_in_Somalia_(2007%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Yemen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Yemen
  - karaterobot 3y ago
    Sorry, maybe my taxonomy is different. I mean a full-scale war, not whatever those were. A war with roughly equivalent militaries and economies, where there is a threat and war footing that might justify changing the lives of civilians and their relationship to their government. Technically, Congress hasn't declared war since 1942, even though we've been in some big ones since then, but that's not what I mean either. We probably need a broader vocabulary to describe the various uses of force in international relations, which distinguishes between war and military actions, however expensive.
    - bugglebeetle 3y ago
      I think any context in which the US invades another country and kills a million civilians is a “hot war.” Otherwise, you’ve gone so far down a “war is peace” rabbit hole that you’re no longer in touch with reality.

by tlb 3y ago

che_shirecat 3y ago

What did the US foreign policy establishment know about Afghanistan and Iraq than you or I do? Last I heard from reliable sources, Iraq had WMD's and were a clear and present danger? Why not just preempt China's nuclear capability too by nuking them?

bee_rider 3y ago
I think you are just making a rhetorical flourish, but we should be clear that Iraq didn’t have WMDs, wasn’t an urgent danger, and any sources that said they did should not be treated as reliable.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > any sources that said they did should not be treated as reliable. American GEOINT, MASINT, SIGINT and TECHINT are likely the best in the world. American HUMINT, OSINT and--somewhat paradoxically--FININT are atrocious. Unfortunately, we frequently ascribe confidence intervals to our clandestine services based on experience with e.g. the NRO.
  - yonaguska 3y ago
    They might be the best in the world- but it doesn't matter because they don't answer to citizens. I trust that they have good information- I don't trust that good information gets to us, our politicians, etc.
triceratops 3y ago
> What did the US foreign policy establishment know about Afghanistan That Osama was hiding there. Which he was, at the time. And that he had carried out 9/11. Which he did. The Irag and Afghanistan wars were not the same. Practically everyone supported the US in Afghanistan. Practically no one followed the US into Iraq.

vasco 3y ago

I agree with this stance, it's naive to think that countries wouldn't prefer to block others from having as much information about their own citizens than themselves. This just seems like a reasonable position any government would adopt and defensive in nature as you point out. The discussion then can be on where you set the privacy bar for each case: - your country spying on your own citizens - your country spying on foreign citizens - other countries ability to spy on your own citizens

karaterobot 3y ago

We don't do hot wars anymore, and peace is just (to paraphrase Paul Valéry) the period during which you wage war by other means. We're definitely in a conflict with China, it's just not a gun-based conflict.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
> We don't do hot wars anymore Afghanistan? The Iraq War? The people we drone strike every day?
- waffleiron 3y ago
  Current hot "interventions" for those interested: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_t... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention_in_Niger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention_in_Somalia_(2007%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_military_intervention... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Yemen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Yemen
- karaterobot 3y ago
  Sorry, maybe my taxonomy is different. I mean a full-scale war, not whatever those were. A war with roughly equivalent militaries and economies, where there is a threat and war footing that might justify changing the lives of civilians and their relationship to their government. Technically, Congress hasn't declared war since 1942, even though we've been in some big ones since then, but that's not what I mean either. We probably need a broader vocabulary to describe the various uses of force in international relations, which distinguishes between war and military actions, however expensive.
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    I think any context in which the US invades another country and kills a million civilians is a “hot war.” Otherwise, you’ve gone so far down a “war is peace” rabbit hole that you’re no longer in touch with reality.