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I almost always avoid commenting on issues like this just because -- as a guy -- there's no upside to saying anything and a lot of potential downside. So even t

I almost always avoid commenting on issues like this just because -- as a guy -- there's no upside to saying anything and a lot of potential downside. So even though I think the issue is interesting and important and worth discussing, I generally find myself mildly terrified at the prospect of making any sort commentary (or even really, at asking a question). There's kind of a thing where if you're from a certain group, you can't really talk about this sort of thing without making your "allegiances" super clear. I don't really think that's a healthy intellectual environment. And even then, any thought is met with a lot of wide looking eyes. There are indeed things you can't say. So, I feel weird whenever I see articles like this on hacker news, not because the subject isn't worth discussing, but because I feel like the only commentary that's "acceptable" is platitudes. There's no real room for exploration or thought experiments. The stakes are too high. It's not really a discussion, it's more of a social game. Not a social game in the farmville sense, but in the Eric Berne "Games People Play" sense. It's often quite ritualized. That said, I feel like this article is conflating an obvious cultural issue with a gender issue, and I think that's a mistake. The link to me between the culture problem and the gender problem isn't super obvious. I have a lot of the same complaints as her with regard to a lot of startup culture, and I'm a guy. The suggestion seems to be that somehow this particular startup culture is obviously masculine, and I don't see how that's the case. I actually agree with some (not all) of the criticisms of that culture, but I don't think that it really has anything to do with gender. I don't want to suggest that gender never plays a role, because I think that would be naive, but if you're going to make that claim I think it's important you back it up with something solid because making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things uncomfortable for everyone, and that accomplishes nothing.

marquis 15y ago
>making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things uncomfortable for everyone Yes, I agree completely, and the unhelpful comment left by 'Bill' on her page served to 'shut her up', rather I wish he would ask a question, seek for more details which could lead to a genuine understanding from all sides. It is encouraging to me that you understand the core issue here: not that there are problems but we don't know how to talk about them.
wickedchicken 15y ago
> I almost always avoid commenting on issues like this just because -- as a guy -- there's no upside to saying anything and a lot of potential downside. I certainly understand your position on this, but I want to point out something interesting: your hesitance to speak because you might say "the wrong thing" actually has an effect in itself. Nobody wants to make other people feel uncomfortable. If you're a woman and entering a room makes people worried about "saying the wrong thing," then you feel bad... reinforcing the impression that a woman somehow "shouldn't be there." It's awful because a well-meaning person ends up preserving the situation they're actively trying to prevent. You claim that there isn't much of an upside to a guy speaking in this situation -- there is in fact a quite large upside. By taking place in a conversation like this, you're sending a social signal that this kind of behavior -- talking about these issues in the open -- is encouraged and normal. It sounds like you're worried that this will backfire, but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't when handled correctly. The basic rule to pull this off is to stop seeing certain classes of people as 'others.' It's harder to do than it sounds, because you'll find that lots of your cognition has this stuff hardwired. Eventually you'll recognize when you're thinking this way and take corrective action.

marquis 15y ago

>making everyone walk on egg shells based on conjecture just makes things uncomfortable for everyone Yes, I agree completely, and the unhelpful comment left by 'Bill' on her page served to 'shut her up', rather I wish he would ask a question, seek for more details which could lead to a genuine understanding from all sides. It is encouraging to me that you understand the core issue here: not that there are problems but we don't know how to talk about them.

wickedchicken 15y ago

> I almost always avoid commenting on issues like this just because -- as a guy -- there's no upside to saying anything and a lot of potential downside. I certainly understand your position on this, but I want to point out something interesting: your hesitance to speak because you might say "the wrong thing" actually has an effect in itself. Nobody wants to make other people feel uncomfortable. If you're a woman and entering a room makes people worried about "saying the wrong thing," then you feel bad... reinforcing the impression that a woman somehow "shouldn't be there." It's awful because a well-meaning person ends up preserving the situation they're actively trying to prevent. You claim that there isn't much of an upside to a guy speaking in this situation -- there is in fact a quite large upside. By taking place in a conversation like this, you're sending a social signal that this kind of behavior -- talking about these issues in the open -- is encouraged and normal. It sounds like you're worried that this will backfire, but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't when handled correctly. The basic rule to pull this off is to stop seeing certain classes of people as 'others.' It's harder to do than it sounds, because you'll find that lots of your cognition has this stuff hardwired. Eventually you'll recognize when you're thinking this way and take corrective action.