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"Must" is debatable, but I've got a propane patio heater of a fairly common model here (NL) that tops out at 13000 watts. If it were electric it would require

by avar 3y ago

"Must" is debatable, but I've got a propane patio heater of a fairly common model here (NL) that tops out at 13000 watts. If it were electric it would require a 13k/220 = 60 amp connection, triple the domestic wiring standard here.

bertil 3y ago
You’d need a lot less power if you use infrared lights… Still: better grid connection or home batteries are much less complicated to install than a whole new CO2 conversion set-up, plus we are going to need those if people are going to drive electric cars. The cost (energy or money) of capturing CO2 in the atmosphere into concentrate for that catalytic process.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  You have a lot of industrial processes that produce highly concentrated CO2 - for example, cement production which is responsible for about 8% of worldwide CO2 emissions.
  - bertil 3y ago
    I’m not convinced that the overall cycle is sustainable: cement >> concentrated CO2 >> electrolysis >> propane >> burn into the atmosphere still leaves that 8% of CO2 in the air.
    - ivan_gammel 3y ago
      It replaces equivalent 8% of CO2 from fossil fuels that would be burned otherwise.
    - yetihehe 3y ago
      Cement is absorbing some of that CO2 back when it's curing. Some of CO2 is emitted by processing (crushing and heating), that part could be eliminated by renewable fuels, some is inherent in making cement (releasing CO2 from limestone) but most of that part is absorbed back during curing. There are also carbon-negative alternatives in works[0]. That propane from cement could be used for synthesis of other materials instead of oil (not used yet because it's not needed only because we have cheaper oil) instead of being burned. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/dec/31/cement-carbon-emissions https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/dec/31/cement-c...
- rocqua 3y ago
  We will need all the electrification we can get for electric cars and heat pumps. offloading some of that to other energy sources, using pre-existing infrastructure, would be amazing!
pjc50 3y ago
Patio heaters: for when the planet isn't warming fast enough and you want to pump heat directly into the atmosphere.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  That's good. But also a bit misleading. Pumping heat into the atmosphere isn't really at the heart of climate change - adding insulation to the atmosphere is. It probably isn't great to pump heat into it either, but the mechanisms for radiative loss of that extra heat are (were) pretty good, and it would take a gigantic amount of heat (more than we've produced by burning fossil fuels) to shift the energy level in the atmosphere by much over longer time frames. However, effectively adding another blanket to the atmosphere is far more impactful. Last credible estimate I saw was the atmosphere now contains about an extra 8 peta-watts compared to pre-industrial times, and almost all of that comes from a reduction in "radiative forcing" (loss of heat to space, essentially) rather than additional heat generation.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Yes, the amount of heat added to the atmosphere by human activities is negligible compared to what we receive every day from the sun. It's the heat that is retained that is the problem.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    This is true, but it's also explaining a joke. The real point is that patio heaters are necessarily very inefficient because they're operating in an uninsulated space that's open to the elements - almost all the heat will be immediately lost to the atmosphere. Heat lamps are better, but really patio heaters are used by people trying to cosplay an outdoor culture at a latitude or season that doesn't support it, and they should put some warmer clothes on or go inside.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Your final observation might be true of parts of the USA. But go to Berlin in winter, or anywhere in northern Europe really, where "it's cold" and "being outside" are not considered oppositional. Take a winter walk down a Berlin street with outdoor restaurant seating, and see people sitting under blankets, with warm coats on, and hats ... enjoying dinner ... and patio heaters. They are not cosplaying at anything. It's just how it is.
goodpoint 3y ago
Patio heaters should be illegal.

by avar 3y ago

bertil 3y ago

You’d need a lot less power if you use infrared lights… Still: better grid connection or home batteries are much less complicated to install than a whole new CO2 conversion set-up, plus we are going to need those if people are going to drive electric cars. The cost (energy or money) of capturing CO2 in the atmosphere into concentrate for that catalytic process.

mschuster91 3y ago
You have a lot of industrial processes that produce highly concentrated CO2 - for example, cement production which is responsible for about 8% of worldwide CO2 emissions.
- bertil 3y ago
  I’m not convinced that the overall cycle is sustainable: cement >> concentrated CO2 >> electrolysis >> propane >> burn into the atmosphere still leaves that 8% of CO2 in the air.
  - ivan_gammel 3y ago
    It replaces equivalent 8% of CO2 from fossil fuels that would be burned otherwise.
  - yetihehe 3y ago
    Cement is absorbing some of that CO2 back when it's curing. Some of CO2 is emitted by processing (crushing and heating), that part could be eliminated by renewable fuels, some is inherent in making cement (releasing CO2 from limestone) but most of that part is absorbed back during curing. There are also carbon-negative alternatives in works[0]. That propane from cement could be used for synthesis of other materials instead of oil (not used yet because it's not needed only because we have cheaper oil) instead of being burned. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/dec/31/cement-carbon-emissions https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/dec/31/cement-c...
rocqua 3y ago
We will need all the electrification we can get for electric cars and heat pumps. offloading some of that to other energy sources, using pre-existing infrastructure, would be amazing!

pjc50 3y ago

Patio heaters: for when the planet isn't warming fast enough and you want to pump heat directly into the atmosphere.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
That's good. But also a bit misleading. Pumping heat into the atmosphere isn't really at the heart of climate change - adding insulation to the atmosphere is. It probably isn't great to pump heat into it either, but the mechanisms for radiative loss of that extra heat are (were) pretty good, and it would take a gigantic amount of heat (more than we've produced by burning fossil fuels) to shift the energy level in the atmosphere by much over longer time frames. However, effectively adding another blanket to the atmosphere is far more impactful. Last credible estimate I saw was the atmosphere now contains about an extra 8 peta-watts compared to pre-industrial times, and almost all of that comes from a reduction in "radiative forcing" (loss of heat to space, essentially) rather than additional heat generation.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Yes, the amount of heat added to the atmosphere by human activities is negligible compared to what we receive every day from the sun. It's the heat that is retained that is the problem.
- pjc50 3y ago
  This is true, but it's also explaining a joke. The real point is that patio heaters are necessarily very inefficient because they're operating in an uninsulated space that's open to the elements - almost all the heat will be immediately lost to the atmosphere. Heat lamps are better, but really patio heaters are used by people trying to cosplay an outdoor culture at a latitude or season that doesn't support it, and they should put some warmer clothes on or go inside.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Your final observation might be true of parts of the USA. But go to Berlin in winter, or anywhere in northern Europe really, where "it's cold" and "being outside" are not considered oppositional. Take a winter walk down a Berlin street with outdoor restaurant seating, and see people sitting under blankets, with warm coats on, and hats ... enjoying dinner ... and patio heaters. They are not cosplaying at anything. It's just how it is.

goodpoint 3y ago

Patio heaters should be illegal.