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The question to ask is why? The answer is that we have programmed these systems to do what we require. They cannot exceed but they fail becasue of errors that

The question to ask is why? The answer is that we have programmed these systems to do what we require. They cannot exceed but they fail becasue of errors that we have placed in these systems. All of the tasks that you have mentioned have been programmed that way. It has taken human ingenuity to work out how to do this programming. The end result is a machine (non-sentient, non-intelligent) that is doing what we require. If you look at game playing, a system was created to play Go and won and yet that same system fails to win against humans under many circumstances. The literature is there, yet not publicised for all the world to see. A result of keeping the hype in play. If you look at speech recognition, these systems still fail when we humans work against them and yet, we humans still recognise what the machines fail at. Just keep in mind that a tractor can move a greater amount of material than a human can, but it is still only a tool. A plane can travel faster and fly higher that a human can, but it is still only a tool. We use these systems to augment our abilities and yet they are all limited in so many ways that we are not. The upshot is that we can do amazing things with the things we create, but none of those things exist without us and all those things fail without us.

ben_w 3y ago
> All of the tasks that you have mentioned have been programmed that way. It has taken human ingenuity to work out how to do this programming. The successful Go AI were programmed to learn; we still can't program a decent Go AI with rules humans come up with. > The literature is there Do you have a link? Two Minute Papers just had a video about an AI systematic finding ways to confound other AI, but I thought we'd passed the point where the best Go AI could be so manipulated by humans…
- oldandtired 3y ago
  Your example of the Go AI being programmed to learn is not all that accurate for what has been achieved here. I didn't keep the link for the discussion on the confounding of the Go AI system. What the discussion covered though was that there were simple Go configurations that the GO AI failed abysmally on when playing a human - it didn't learn here. I have spent forty years dealing with all sorts of computer systems - designing, building, maintaining, repairing, redesigning and rebuilding. One thing I have learnt over that time is that none of the systems ever built has been error free in terms of the logic entailed within them. All to often, I have seen systems that were used to make decisions with and those using them assuming that the outputs were correct or reasonable. Yet on investigation, the logic entailed in them was completely rubbish. We make assumptions and often we do not carefully check that those assumptions are actually real. I don't trust anything I write until I have gone over it with a fine tooth comb and then I will try to document all my assumptions and this usually shows up various logic errors or conditions that I didn't think about. I don't see this happening much out in the real world.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > Your example of the Go AI being programmed to learn is not all that accurate for what has been achieved here. What do you mean? AlphaZero was trained entirely on self-play, and is a generic reinforcement learning algorithm. All it starts with are the rules (Chess, Go, Shogi) and a few million games later it beats — so far as I can see from a quick Google — all the humans, and most matches against AlphaGo Zero which learned the same way and which in turn beat AlphaGo Lee in every match, and that (unlike the aforementioned) was trained on examples of human matches in addition to self-play… but still learning from those examples as there's no known useful[0] set of rules that even says if a Go game is over let alone which moves are good. There are AI which can find and exploit its weaknesses, but I've not seen anyone else suggest humans can defeat it. > I didn't keep the link for the discussion on the confounding of the Go AI system. What the discussion covered though was that there were simple Go configurations that the GO AI failed abysmally on when playing a human - it didn't learn here. Do you remember the name of the AI? A bit of rummaging got me KataGo, but the humans had to use another AI to discover the weaknesses of KataGo rather than figuring it out for themselves. And yes, KataGo absolutely does learn. The fact you can trivially stop the learning process is a feature not a bug for AI, precisely because it means any safety testing of the sort you're calling for is actually possible (albeit rather different than formal logic). [0] pathological cases are easy — "board empty == not finished" — but not helpful.
    - oldandtired 3y ago
      > What do you mean? Whose intelligence programmed this system? > Do you remember the name of the AI? If I recall correctly - Go AI. They used a simple regular pattern and the system failed to beat the human. It didn't [learn] from this. All such systems use a set of rules (whether specific or pattern based or mathematically based - there is some form of logic involved, even when using probabilistic functions), you and I can make choices based on illogical decisions - irrational decisions if you like. No computational system is capable of irrational decisions, the decisions may be surprising but of you look at the code then that option was always there somewhere, It cannot take a path that does not exist. We can create a completely new path not previously available.

ben_w 3y ago

> All of the tasks that you have mentioned have been programmed that way. It has taken human ingenuity to work out how to do this programming. The successful Go AI were programmed to learn; we still can't program a decent Go AI with rules humans come up with. > The literature is there Do you have a link? Two Minute Papers just had a video about an AI systematic finding ways to confound other AI, but I thought we'd passed the point where the best Go AI could be so manipulated by humans…

oldandtired 3y ago
Your example of the Go AI being programmed to learn is not all that accurate for what has been achieved here. I didn't keep the link for the discussion on the confounding of the Go AI system. What the discussion covered though was that there were simple Go configurations that the GO AI failed abysmally on when playing a human - it didn't learn here. I have spent forty years dealing with all sorts of computer systems - designing, building, maintaining, repairing, redesigning and rebuilding. One thing I have learnt over that time is that none of the systems ever built has been error free in terms of the logic entailed within them. All to often, I have seen systems that were used to make decisions with and those using them assuming that the outputs were correct or reasonable. Yet on investigation, the logic entailed in them was completely rubbish. We make assumptions and often we do not carefully check that those assumptions are actually real. I don't trust anything I write until I have gone over it with a fine tooth comb and then I will try to document all my assumptions and this usually shows up various logic errors or conditions that I didn't think about. I don't see this happening much out in the real world.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > Your example of the Go AI being programmed to learn is not all that accurate for what has been achieved here. What do you mean? AlphaZero was trained entirely on self-play, and is a generic reinforcement learning algorithm. All it starts with are the rules (Chess, Go, Shogi) and a few million games later it beats — so far as I can see from a quick Google — all the humans, and most matches against AlphaGo Zero which learned the same way and which in turn beat AlphaGo Lee in every match, and that (unlike the aforementioned) was trained on examples of human matches in addition to self-play… but still learning from those examples as there's no known useful[0] set of rules that even says if a Go game is over let alone which moves are good. There are AI which can find and exploit its weaknesses, but I've not seen anyone else suggest humans can defeat it. > I didn't keep the link for the discussion on the confounding of the Go AI system. What the discussion covered though was that there were simple Go configurations that the GO AI failed abysmally on when playing a human - it didn't learn here. Do you remember the name of the AI? A bit of rummaging got me KataGo, but the humans had to use another AI to discover the weaknesses of KataGo rather than figuring it out for themselves. And yes, KataGo absolutely does learn. The fact you can trivially stop the learning process is a feature not a bug for AI, precisely because it means any safety testing of the sort you're calling for is actually possible (albeit rather different than formal logic). [0] pathological cases are easy — "board empty == not finished" — but not helpful.
  - oldandtired 3y ago
    > What do you mean? Whose intelligence programmed this system? > Do you remember the name of the AI? If I recall correctly - Go AI. They used a simple regular pattern and the system failed to beat the human. It didn't [learn] from this. All such systems use a set of rules (whether specific or pattern based or mathematically based - there is some form of logic involved, even when using probabilistic functions), you and I can make choices based on illogical decisions - irrational decisions if you like. No computational system is capable of irrational decisions, the decisions may be surprising but of you look at the code then that option was always there somewhere, It cannot take a path that does not exist. We can create a completely new path not previously available.