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Because it's a ridiculous comment. France has been relying on nuclear power for a huge chunk of their national energy use for over 50 years. France is nuclear p

by tinco 3y ago

Because it's a ridiculous comment. France has been relying on nuclear power for a huge chunk of their national energy use for over 50 years. France is nuclear power greatest success story. The amount years of improved air quality, the enormous amount of CO2 prevented, the relative political independence of France, all of these are taken for granted without measure. And then the counter argument is that they recently stopped? How is that an argument against nuclear power? The reason they're relying on German coal right now is because they stopped building new nuclear plants because gas was too cheap, there was too much geopolitical stability for it to be strategically advantageous and it was not politically attractive to spend money on. None of these are arguments against nuclear, but the results of short sighted decisions. Nuclear is only more expensive than gas if you don't count the effect on climate, the dependence on oil producing nations, the health effects of airborne particles.

rtpg 3y ago
France is a nuclear success story, but they're also a good indicator that even when you're all bought in, there are logistics difficulties that come from your power generation being centralized to certain locations. France has like 80% nuclear power, and most of the nuclear plants are actually underutilized! Why would France not use the plants at 100%? Because electricity is kind of fungible, except at massive scales where it totally isn't, and you can't "just" have power generated in the south be used in the north. Nuclear is more expensive than gas, but once again it is worth pointing out that it is more expensive than solar and wind! Does this mean that we can replace all of the reactors with solar or wind? Obviously not. But if you're sitting there trying to produce energy in places that are not as close to the existing reactors, building energy production facilities that don't take decades to build (for "building big things takes time" reasons) and can work without a constant inflow of water (which is a practical and real concern for these power plants).
- preisschild 3y ago
  > France has like 80% nuclear power, and most of the nuclear plants are actually underutilized! Why would France not use the plants at 100%? Because more electricity is needed in during certain times, like during the day or when it's winter.
  - rtpg 3y ago
    But that's the point, really. Nuclear reactors are not economical if you're not really going for it, so in an environment where you are relying heavily on nuclear reactors, suddenly your entire endeavor is not very practical without massive state aid. This is less of a problem in other places that have less nuclear power setup because they can be used to cover the baseline. Now, EDF is turning off reactors over the weekend cuz the power isn't needed, and in periods of high demand EDF doesn't actually have the capacity, because they don't have much peak generation! Building more nuclear plants to cover peaks would make everything even more expensive, And decomissioning reactors entirely would cause their own massive issues because, again, electricity generation is not fungible. One would (correctly!) point that most renewables don't help with peak generation either, and you would be right. But if you're planning on decomissioning a nuclear power plant, replacing some of that capacity with renewables at least gets your operating costs down. And energy storage solutions that are more fungible... well... you walk and chew bubble gum. Use what you have, and build what makes sense. Just in 2023 your choices for clean power generation for energy storage are vast.
car 3y ago
Ridiculous? Well, pardon me. This wasn't meant to be an argument against nuclear power, hopefully obvious when read calmly, but rather a statement of facts. I didn't want the nuke cheerleading go on without pointing out some inconvenient details. It's a complex topic, and I appreciate the more detailed responses about the french situation. Edit: Let me add the fact, that France seems to have trouble training enough personnel for these highly complex plants, rightfully so to protect the environment from the dangers of radiation. Considering the demographics of Europe in general, that is a troubling development for maintenance of these power plants decades into the future.
- tinco 3y ago
  > Ridiculous? Well, pardon me. You are excused. In my opinion even though indeed you present facts neutrally, your choice of facts seemed intended to make it seem as though nuclear reactors being turned off is somehow something generally a problem with nuclear reactors. In the same line of reasoning as before, if France and the rest of the world had continued their investment in a thriving nuclear industry then getting new talent might not have been such a pressing issue.
Gwypaas 3y ago
Such a success story that their nuclear company, EDF, had to be nationalized and is so indebted that they can not finance new nuclear without state aid. >(Montel) French utility EDF is unable to self-finance the construction of new nuclear reactors due to its EUR 65bn debt and so needs state funding, CEO Luc Remont told a hearing of France’s lower house on Wednesday. https://www.montelnews.com/news/1511372/french-state-must-fund-new-nuclear-due-to-edf-debt--ceo https://www.montelnews.com/news/1511372/french-state-must-fu... Meanwhile Germany and the US is making billions by auctioning the right to build off-shore wind. > Germany’s first dynamic bidding process, covering four offshore wind zones with a combined capacity of 7 GW, has generated EUR 12.6 billion in proceeds, according to the Federal Network Agency. https://www.offshorewind.biz/2023/07/12/breaking-germany-rakes-in-eur-12-6-billion-through-dynamic-bidding-offshore-wind-auction/ https://www.offshorewind.biz/2023/07/12/breaking-germany-rak... > U.S. Offshore Wind Power Auction Nets Record $4.37 Billion https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-offshore-wind-power-auction-nets-record-4-37-billion-11645819133 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-offshore-wind-power-auction... I have a hard time seeing France as a success story to emulate today. Choosing nuclear was the right choose to gain energy independence in the 70s, today the equivalent choice are renewables.
- tinco 3y ago
  Such a success story that France didn't buy oil/gas from abroad to generate electricity worth 120B euro a year for 40 years in a row. Who cares about the financial management vehicle of the operation is 65B short at the end of those 40 years? The wind farms are awesome, and I'm super happy that the current economic and geopolitical climate and the technological advancements are making them possible and financially attractive to build. But in the end success is measured in TWh delivered. And France has been delivering 300TWh+/y of clean electricity for 40 years straight. And the 7GW that's gonna deliver ~20TWh/year is cool, but we need a whole lot more of it before it can be deemed as much a success as France's nuclear endeavour has been.
  - Gwypaas 3y ago
    Exactly as I said. Nuclear was the right choice in the 70s. At that time the climate as a question did not exist, it was only about energy independence. Today the equivalent choice when rebuilding our energy systems are renewables. Case in point, already in 2021 renewables delivered more TWh globally per year than all existing nuclear [1], we are still early in the buildout. The tender in 2024/25 for German north sea wind auctions will be ~10 GW. [2] [1]: https://imgur.com/JYMNAWR https://imgur.com/JYMNAWR [2]: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/060123-feature-german-offshore-wind-to-enter-new-era-as-7-gw-auction-closes https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...

by tinco 3y ago

rtpg 3y ago

France is a nuclear success story, but they're also a good indicator that even when you're all bought in, there are logistics difficulties that come from your power generation being centralized to certain locations. France has like 80% nuclear power, and most of the nuclear plants are actually underutilized! Why would France not use the plants at 100%? Because electricity is kind of fungible, except at massive scales where it totally isn't, and you can't "just" have power generated in the south be used in the north. Nuclear is more expensive than gas, but once again it is worth pointing out that it is more expensive than solar and wind! Does this mean that we can replace all of the reactors with solar or wind? Obviously not. But if you're sitting there trying to produce energy in places that are not as close to the existing reactors, building energy production facilities that don't take decades to build (for "building big things takes time" reasons) and can work without a constant inflow of water (which is a practical and real concern for these power plants).

preisschild 3y ago
> France has like 80% nuclear power, and most of the nuclear plants are actually underutilized! Why would France not use the plants at 100%? Because more electricity is needed in during certain times, like during the day or when it's winter.
- rtpg 3y ago
  But that's the point, really. Nuclear reactors are not economical if you're not really going for it, so in an environment where you are relying heavily on nuclear reactors, suddenly your entire endeavor is not very practical without massive state aid. This is less of a problem in other places that have less nuclear power setup because they can be used to cover the baseline. Now, EDF is turning off reactors over the weekend cuz the power isn't needed, and in periods of high demand EDF doesn't actually have the capacity, because they don't have much peak generation! Building more nuclear plants to cover peaks would make everything even more expensive, And decomissioning reactors entirely would cause their own massive issues because, again, electricity generation is not fungible. One would (correctly!) point that most renewables don't help with peak generation either, and you would be right. But if you're planning on decomissioning a nuclear power plant, replacing some of that capacity with renewables at least gets your operating costs down. And energy storage solutions that are more fungible... well... you walk and chew bubble gum. Use what you have, and build what makes sense. Just in 2023 your choices for clean power generation for energy storage are vast.

car 3y ago

Ridiculous? Well, pardon me. This wasn't meant to be an argument against nuclear power, hopefully obvious when read calmly, but rather a statement of facts. I didn't want the nuke cheerleading go on without pointing out some inconvenient details. It's a complex topic, and I appreciate the more detailed responses about the french situation. Edit: Let me add the fact, that France seems to have trouble training enough personnel for these highly complex plants, rightfully so to protect the environment from the dangers of radiation. Considering the demographics of Europe in general, that is a troubling development for maintenance of these power plants decades into the future.

tinco 3y ago
> Ridiculous? Well, pardon me. You are excused. In my opinion even though indeed you present facts neutrally, your choice of facts seemed intended to make it seem as though nuclear reactors being turned off is somehow something generally a problem with nuclear reactors. In the same line of reasoning as before, if France and the rest of the world had continued their investment in a thriving nuclear industry then getting new talent might not have been such a pressing issue.

Gwypaas 3y ago

Such a success story that their nuclear company, EDF, had to be nationalized and is so indebted that they can not finance new nuclear without state aid. >(Montel) French utility EDF is unable to self-finance the construction of new nuclear reactors due to its EUR 65bn debt and so needs state funding, CEO Luc Remont told a hearing of France’s lower house on Wednesday. https://www.montelnews.com/news/1511372/french-state-must-fund-new-nuclear-due-to-edf-debt--ceo https://www.montelnews.com/news/1511372/french-state-must-fu... Meanwhile Germany and the US is making billions by auctioning the right to build off-shore wind. > Germany’s first dynamic bidding process, covering four offshore wind zones with a combined capacity of 7 GW, has generated EUR 12.6 billion in proceeds, according to the Federal Network Agency. https://www.offshorewind.biz/2023/07/12/breaking-germany-rakes-in-eur-12-6-billion-through-dynamic-bidding-offshore-wind-auction/ https://www.offshorewind.biz/2023/07/12/breaking-germany-rak... > U.S. Offshore Wind Power Auction Nets Record $4.37 Billion https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-offshore-wind-power-auction-nets-record-4-37-billion-11645819133 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-offshore-wind-power-auction... I have a hard time seeing France as a success story to emulate today. Choosing nuclear was the right choose to gain energy independence in the 70s, today the equivalent choice are renewables.

tinco 3y ago
Such a success story that France didn't buy oil/gas from abroad to generate electricity worth 120B euro a year for 40 years in a row. Who cares about the financial management vehicle of the operation is 65B short at the end of those 40 years? The wind farms are awesome, and I'm super happy that the current economic and geopolitical climate and the technological advancements are making them possible and financially attractive to build. But in the end success is measured in TWh delivered. And France has been delivering 300TWh+/y of clean electricity for 40 years straight. And the 7GW that's gonna deliver ~20TWh/year is cool, but we need a whole lot more of it before it can be deemed as much a success as France's nuclear endeavour has been.
- Gwypaas 3y ago
  Exactly as I said. Nuclear was the right choice in the 70s. At that time the climate as a question did not exist, it was only about energy independence. Today the equivalent choice when rebuilding our energy systems are renewables. Case in point, already in 2021 renewables delivered more TWh globally per year than all existing nuclear [1], we are still early in the buildout. The tender in 2024/25 for German north sea wind auctions will be ~10 GW. [2] [1]: https://imgur.com/JYMNAWR https://imgur.com/JYMNAWR [2]: https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/060123-feature-german-offshore-wind-to-enter-new-era-as-7-gw-auction-closes https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...