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> OpenAI, the ChatGPT maker committed to paying to train its models on AP news stories going back to 1985 Why are they paying or even asking for permission for

> OpenAI, the ChatGPT maker committed to paying to train its models on AP news stories going back to 1985 Why are they paying or even asking for permission for training on data?

claytonjy 3y ago
Because they see the lawsuits and shifts in public perception. Now that they've "cheated" their way to the top, they can play by the rules to entrench themselves so others can't catch up.
- layoric 3y ago
  Exactly, regulatory capture.
ceejayoz 3y ago
Because it’s gonna occasionally spit out direct uncredited quotes from AP articles, and they know it. There’s gonna be a whole new field of law cropping up around this stuff; getting the big players appeased will be important. DALL-E helpfully slaps a ShutterStock logo on some creations, for example. https://twitter.com/amoebadesign/status/1534542037814591490 https://twitter.com/amoebadesign/status/1534542037814591490
- nodja 3y ago
  ruDALL-E is not DALL-E, it's a replication attempt made on a Russian image-text dataset and is not affiliated with openai. The original DALL-E was trained on a private dataset and wouldn't have watermarks.
- operatingthetan 3y ago
  >DALL-E helpfully slaps a ShutterStock logo on some creations, for example Seems like you could train the AI to recognize the logos and edit them out?
  - LegitShady 3y ago
    that you have to do it at all is evidence that its recreating images from its training set and there could be potential copyright issues.
    - famouswaffles 3y ago
      >is evidence that its recreating images from its training set No it isn't lol. a shutterstock logo is just more common ground for the model because of how often it will appear in the dataset.
      - p1necone 3y ago
        You don't see how it generating a registered trademark in its output is a problem? You think it's okay to monkey patch this one obvious case and call it good?
        andromeduck 3y ago
        If you think it's the trademark that's the issue then removing it is sufficient.
        benterix 3y ago
        I think you misinterpreted parent's statement.
        madeofpalk 3y ago
        They do not think it's only that one trademark that's the issue.
      - michaelt 3y ago
        Shutterstock would say that the model is a derivative work of their images, much like a photograph of a painting is a derivative work of the painting despite being in a different medium. They would say they are owed licensing fees regardless of whether the shutterstock logo appears in the output. The appearance of their logo in the output merely proves that the system's outputs are derived from their copyrighted images.
- merth 3y ago
  what if a user copied a line from AP on a reddit comment and some LLM trained on it.
colechristensen 3y ago
Copyright law doesn’t quite have a handle on machine learning training rules but it will. Belligerence at this point will only encourage stronger rules in the future.
- two_in_one 3y ago
  Doesn't matter as long as we give AGI to masses first.
mrtksn 3y ago
Interesting, isn't it? I'm sure it has some legal or PR reason or something but IMHO the more important part is about acknowledging the problem: The current copyright system doesn't work and something is needed to compensate for the work. The internet has shaken the system but the content producers were able to adapt, albeit resulting in lower quality content. However with the raise of AI, the thing completely shattered. Previously, someone reading the content and telling it to others wasn't a problem that breaks the compensation scheme for content producers but with ChatGPT and similar we have a situation where this "person" can tall about it to literally everyone. Some new compensation scheme is needed and OpenAI is probably trying o act as the "nice guy" to prevent the urgent need of a scheme that might limit their ability to consume other people's content.
noobermin 3y ago
That's nice, so OpenAI will pay you if you're big enough but if you're a small fry they won't, good to know.
- nomel 3y ago
  I think it's safe to assume that a cost minimization is taking place, as would be expected.
- CameronNemo 3y ago
  I'm sure I'll get 53 cents from a class action lawsuit somewhere down the line.
Retric 3y ago
So they can make a local copy of all AP stories before training the AI. The AI is a derivative work and it’s unclear if it’s distinct enough to be a problem or not. Finally, some of what ChatGPT is going to spit out is going to very closely resemble AP stories which may itself be a problem. This stuff is a legal minefield, as a for profit company building their core product it’s very difficult to argue each of these is fair use etc. Though I am sure that argument will be made, it’s risky when dealing with companies whose businesses model centers around IP.
nl 3y ago
Despite the cynical responses here there is actually a practical reason why OpenAI is paying for this: The AP News Archive is not available online to be crawled. See https://www.ap.org/content/archive https://www.ap.org/content/archive There's a reasonable strong argument that crawling public pages for "indexing" (aka learning) is fair use based on the Google precedent and case law from ther early 2000s. The argument is much less strong if those records aren't available.
sacado2 3y ago
Because they don't own it? AFAIK, ChatGPT's model isn't open source, so they seem to know data has some value.

> OpenAI, the ChatGPT maker committed to paying to train its models on AP news stories going back to 1985 Why are they paying or even asking for permission for training on data?

claytonjy 3y ago

Because they see the lawsuits and shifts in public perception. Now that they've "cheated" their way to the top, they can play by the rules to entrench themselves so others can't catch up.

layoric 3y ago
Exactly, regulatory capture.

ceejayoz 3y ago

Because it’s gonna occasionally spit out direct uncredited quotes from AP articles, and they know it. There’s gonna be a whole new field of law cropping up around this stuff; getting the big players appeased will be important. DALL-E helpfully slaps a ShutterStock logo on some creations, for example. https://twitter.com/amoebadesign/status/1534542037814591490 https://twitter.com/amoebadesign/status/1534542037814591490

nodja 3y ago
ruDALL-E is not DALL-E, it's a replication attempt made on a Russian image-text dataset and is not affiliated with openai. The original DALL-E was trained on a private dataset and wouldn't have watermarks.
operatingthetan 3y ago
>DALL-E helpfully slaps a ShutterStock logo on some creations, for example Seems like you could train the AI to recognize the logos and edit them out?
- LegitShady 3y ago
  that you have to do it at all is evidence that its recreating images from its training set and there could be potential copyright issues.
  - famouswaffles 3y ago
    >is evidence that its recreating images from its training set No it isn't lol. a shutterstock logo is just more common ground for the model because of how often it will appear in the dataset.
    - p1necone 3y ago
      You don't see how it generating a registered trademark in its output is a problem? You think it's okay to monkey patch this one obvious case and call it good?
      - andromeduck 3y ago
        If you think it's the trademark that's the issue then removing it is sufficient.
        benterix 3y ago
        I think you misinterpreted parent's statement.
        madeofpalk 3y ago
        They do not think it's only that one trademark that's the issue.
    - michaelt 3y ago
      Shutterstock would say that the model is a derivative work of their images, much like a photograph of a painting is a derivative work of the painting despite being in a different medium. They would say they are owed licensing fees regardless of whether the shutterstock logo appears in the output. The appearance of their logo in the output merely proves that the system's outputs are derived from their copyrighted images.
merth 3y ago
what if a user copied a line from AP on a reddit comment and some LLM trained on it.

colechristensen 3y ago

Copyright law doesn’t quite have a handle on machine learning training rules but it will. Belligerence at this point will only encourage stronger rules in the future.

two_in_one 3y ago
Doesn't matter as long as we give AGI to masses first.

mrtksn 3y ago

Interesting, isn't it? I'm sure it has some legal or PR reason or something but IMHO the more important part is about acknowledging the problem: The current copyright system doesn't work and something is needed to compensate for the work. The internet has shaken the system but the content producers were able to adapt, albeit resulting in lower quality content. However with the raise of AI, the thing completely shattered. Previously, someone reading the content and telling it to others wasn't a problem that breaks the compensation scheme for content producers but with ChatGPT and similar we have a situation where this "person" can tall about it to literally everyone. Some new compensation scheme is needed and OpenAI is probably trying o act as the "nice guy" to prevent the urgent need of a scheme that might limit their ability to consume other people's content.

noobermin 3y ago

That's nice, so OpenAI will pay you if you're big enough but if you're a small fry they won't, good to know.

nomel 3y ago
I think it's safe to assume that a cost minimization is taking place, as would be expected.
CameronNemo 3y ago
I'm sure I'll get 53 cents from a class action lawsuit somewhere down the line.

Retric 3y ago

So they can make a local copy of all AP stories before training the AI. The AI is a derivative work and it’s unclear if it’s distinct enough to be a problem or not. Finally, some of what ChatGPT is going to spit out is going to very closely resemble AP stories which may itself be a problem. This stuff is a legal minefield, as a for profit company building their core product it’s very difficult to argue each of these is fair use etc. Though I am sure that argument will be made, it’s risky when dealing with companies whose businesses model centers around IP.

nl 3y ago

Despite the cynical responses here there is actually a practical reason why OpenAI is paying for this: The AP News Archive is not available online to be crawled. See https://www.ap.org/content/archive https://www.ap.org/content/archive There's a reasonable strong argument that crawling public pages for "indexing" (aka learning) is fair use based on the Google precedent and case law from ther early 2000s. The argument is much less strong if those records aren't available.

sacado2 3y ago

Because they don't own it? AFAIK, ChatGPT's model isn't open source, so they seem to know data has some value.