4 ms·

Depending on location, a bicycle is not a viable alternative. Driving is a condition of living if food is 30 minutes of driving into town. I’m am not advocatin

Depending on location, a bicycle is not a viable alternative. Driving is a condition of living if food is 30 minutes of driving into town. I’m am not advocating for lax DUI laws, but a driving ban is the equivalent of house arrest or forced relocation for some people/locations unless they have people who can help them with transportation. Moving to a city with public transit would provide the most autonomy, but would also mean uprooting one’s life, leaving family behind, etc. The total impact is indeed very harsh, even if it is necessary for the safety of others.

gambiting 3y ago
>>Depending on location, a bicycle is not a viable alternative. I understand. That doesn't change my stance on the matter.
- haswell 3y ago
  > get a bicycle or something So the suggestion was untenable from the start. Driving drunk should be penalized, even harshly. But people should have a chance at rehabilitation. In a car dependent society/region, a permanent ban without an opportunity for reform is cruel and unusual punishment. If self driving cars were 100% here right now, or if we had better public transportation, I think it’d be a different story.
  - Clent 3y ago
    What about my right not to be murdered by a habitual drunk driver?
    - bragr 3y ago
      All rights are a balancing act between the rights of the individual and the rights of society. Thinking about them as one or the other is a pretty dangerous line of thinking IMHO.
    - hansvm 3y ago
      If it makes you feel any better, you don't have much of a right in the US not to be murdered by habitually sober drivers either [0-4]. Other drivers are often very aggressive [5], there's not all that much you can do to mitigate harm at the time, there's practically nothing you can do to discourage that bad behavior if they didn't actually crash into anything, and even if they do your options can be limited. [0] https://www.startribune.com/probation-for-negligent-truck-driver-who-caused-crash-in-anoka-county-that-killed-motorcyclist/600196918/ https://www.startribune.com/probation-for-negligent-truck-dr... [1] https://www.annarbor.com/news/motorist-sentenced-to-probation-in-bicyclists-death/ https://www.annarbor.com/news/motorist-sentenced-to-probatio... [2] https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/driver-in-hit-and-run-that-killed-boy-gets-probation/566652932/ https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/driver-in-hit-and-run-that... [3] https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-in-crash-that-killed-two-kids-given-probation https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-in-crash-that-killed... (if you kill enough children you can get a little jailtime, but again the fact that you were driving really dials back the sentencing) [4] https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/man-accused-in-deadly-wilton-manors-hit-and-run-that-killed-3-children-facing-more-charges/2872599/ https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/man-accused-in-deadly-wi... [5] Not a source; I'm just appalled at the utter disregard for human life I see every time I compare SF drivers to the rest of the country. It's not everywhere that you'll see a car speed >60mph around the shoulder (dodging pedestrians) to pass the car stopped waiting for the kids to cross at the well-marked flashing crosswalk in their school zone, but that level of misbehavior is commonplace here. Why? Is it a sampling artifact? Other major cities don't _seem_ so bad in comparison.
      - haswell 3y ago
        I can’t compare directly to SF, but I’ve noticed a similar trend in Chicago. Drivers here have always been a bit aggressive, but in years past, I wouldn’t have classified it as downright dangerous. The things I see now are mind bogglingly stupid and dangerous.
    - haswell 3y ago
      I was specifically addressing the argument that driving drunk should automatically result in a permanent ban regardless of frequency. If it’s happening habitually, the penalties are generally more severe, and that seems reasonable. If someone reforms themselves, gets sober, stays sober and can prove that, they’re no longer a habitual drunk driver. To add to a sibling comment, the level of distracted driving happening right now is insane. I’ve been almost hit as a pedestrian and as a cyclist about a half dozen times in the past year due to drivers looking anywhere but at the road. Something changed during/after lockdowns. I think people got more addicted to their devices, and take that on the road with them. IMO, DUI needs to roll up to a “driving while dangerously distracted” category. Checking instagram, FaceTiming, etc. while driving is as dangerous as driving drunk, and seems to be happening everywhere. To be clear, my argument is not that people should be excused for bad behavior. But penalties need to be balanced against basic human rights, and should be applied fairly to bad driving behavior across the board.
      - ryandrake 3y ago
        Take a ride on a tall (or double decker) bus, and just look down into random people's cars as they drive. Last time I did that, I'd say close to 80% of the drivers were scrolling through social media or texting while they were driving. It's a massive problem, and I agree it should be treated exactly like DUI and people should have their licenses revoked for repeatedly doing it. Playing with your phone while driving is probably even more dangerous than DUI because it's been so normalized that people doing it don't even realize how much of a menace they are.
haliskerbas 3y ago
We have ruined people's lives in this country for selling a bit of weed, but we wouldn't want to disrupt someone's life too much if they drove drunk THREE times!
- haswell 3y ago
  Ruining people’s lives over weed is arguably immoral and not justice. I see no connection between that and penalties for drunk driving, which are necessary. The point is that while a person should lose their driving privileges for driving drunk, we should take seriously the implications of the typical punishment given our car dependent society, and the lack of public transit options in most places that aren’t big city centers. The comment was a reaction to the flippant “just get a bike”, which is clearly not sufficient in many cases. Driving drunk is stupid, dangerous, and should involve serious penalties. We should not ruin people’s lives over it.
  - ahtihn 3y ago
    > Driving drunk is stupid, dangerous, and should involve serious penalties. We should not ruin people’s lives over it. After getting caught 3 times doing it? Meaning they do it very frequently and will never stop doing it? It's not an innocent mistake at this point. Yes driving privileges should absolutely be revoked over it and if that ruins their life maybe they should have thought about the consequences of their actions?
  - zirgs 3y ago
    I'd argue that we should ruin people's lives over it. Why stop driving drunk if there are no serious consequences?
    - mitchdoogle 3y ago
      Texting while driving (or other similar distractions) results in slower reaction times for drivers than even drunk drivers. Yet it doesn't carry the same stigma. I would even guess a big portion of the people who have absolute disdain for drunk driving are guilty of distracted driving from time to time. I don't know what the answer to that is, since it's more difficult to catch and prove But at the least we should all call out our friends or family if we see them doing it, the same way we would if they were about to drive while drunk.

gambiting 3y ago

>>Depending on location, a bicycle is not a viable alternative. I understand. That doesn't change my stance on the matter.

haswell 3y ago
> get a bicycle or something So the suggestion was untenable from the start. Driving drunk should be penalized, even harshly. But people should have a chance at rehabilitation. In a car dependent society/region, a permanent ban without an opportunity for reform is cruel and unusual punishment. If self driving cars were 100% here right now, or if we had better public transportation, I think it’d be a different story.
- Clent 3y ago
  What about my right not to be murdered by a habitual drunk driver?
  - bragr 3y ago
    All rights are a balancing act between the rights of the individual and the rights of society. Thinking about them as one or the other is a pretty dangerous line of thinking IMHO.
  - hansvm 3y ago
    If it makes you feel any better, you don't have much of a right in the US not to be murdered by habitually sober drivers either [0-4]. Other drivers are often very aggressive [5], there's not all that much you can do to mitigate harm at the time, there's practically nothing you can do to discourage that bad behavior if they didn't actually crash into anything, and even if they do your options can be limited. [0] https://www.startribune.com/probation-for-negligent-truck-driver-who-caused-crash-in-anoka-county-that-killed-motorcyclist/600196918/ https://www.startribune.com/probation-for-negligent-truck-dr... [1] https://www.annarbor.com/news/motorist-sentenced-to-probation-in-bicyclists-death/ https://www.annarbor.com/news/motorist-sentenced-to-probatio... [2] https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/driver-in-hit-and-run-that-killed-boy-gets-probation/566652932/ https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/driver-in-hit-and-run-that... [3] https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-in-crash-that-killed-two-kids-given-probation https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-in-crash-that-killed... (if you kill enough children you can get a little jailtime, but again the fact that you were driving really dials back the sentencing) [4] https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/man-accused-in-deadly-wilton-manors-hit-and-run-that-killed-3-children-facing-more-charges/2872599/ https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/man-accused-in-deadly-wi... [5] Not a source; I'm just appalled at the utter disregard for human life I see every time I compare SF drivers to the rest of the country. It's not everywhere that you'll see a car speed >60mph around the shoulder (dodging pedestrians) to pass the car stopped waiting for the kids to cross at the well-marked flashing crosswalk in their school zone, but that level of misbehavior is commonplace here. Why? Is it a sampling artifact? Other major cities don't _seem_ so bad in comparison.
    - haswell 3y ago
      I can’t compare directly to SF, but I’ve noticed a similar trend in Chicago. Drivers here have always been a bit aggressive, but in years past, I wouldn’t have classified it as downright dangerous. The things I see now are mind bogglingly stupid and dangerous.
  - haswell 3y ago
    I was specifically addressing the argument that driving drunk should automatically result in a permanent ban regardless of frequency. If it’s happening habitually, the penalties are generally more severe, and that seems reasonable. If someone reforms themselves, gets sober, stays sober and can prove that, they’re no longer a habitual drunk driver. To add to a sibling comment, the level of distracted driving happening right now is insane. I’ve been almost hit as a pedestrian and as a cyclist about a half dozen times in the past year due to drivers looking anywhere but at the road. Something changed during/after lockdowns. I think people got more addicted to their devices, and take that on the road with them. IMO, DUI needs to roll up to a “driving while dangerously distracted” category. Checking instagram, FaceTiming, etc. while driving is as dangerous as driving drunk, and seems to be happening everywhere. To be clear, my argument is not that people should be excused for bad behavior. But penalties need to be balanced against basic human rights, and should be applied fairly to bad driving behavior across the board.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      Take a ride on a tall (or double decker) bus, and just look down into random people's cars as they drive. Last time I did that, I'd say close to 80% of the drivers were scrolling through social media or texting while they were driving. It's a massive problem, and I agree it should be treated exactly like DUI and people should have their licenses revoked for repeatedly doing it. Playing with your phone while driving is probably even more dangerous than DUI because it's been so normalized that people doing it don't even realize how much of a menace they are.

haliskerbas 3y ago

We have ruined people's lives in this country for selling a bit of weed, but we wouldn't want to disrupt someone's life too much if they drove drunk THREE times!

haswell 3y ago
Ruining people’s lives over weed is arguably immoral and not justice. I see no connection between that and penalties for drunk driving, which are necessary. The point is that while a person should lose their driving privileges for driving drunk, we should take seriously the implications of the typical punishment given our car dependent society, and the lack of public transit options in most places that aren’t big city centers. The comment was a reaction to the flippant “just get a bike”, which is clearly not sufficient in many cases. Driving drunk is stupid, dangerous, and should involve serious penalties. We should not ruin people’s lives over it.
- ahtihn 3y ago
  > Driving drunk is stupid, dangerous, and should involve serious penalties. We should not ruin people’s lives over it. After getting caught 3 times doing it? Meaning they do it very frequently and will never stop doing it? It's not an innocent mistake at this point. Yes driving privileges should absolutely be revoked over it and if that ruins their life maybe they should have thought about the consequences of their actions?
- zirgs 3y ago
  I'd argue that we should ruin people's lives over it. Why stop driving drunk if there are no serious consequences?
  - mitchdoogle 3y ago
    Texting while driving (or other similar distractions) results in slower reaction times for drivers than even drunk drivers. Yet it doesn't carry the same stigma. I would even guess a big portion of the people who have absolute disdain for drunk driving are guilty of distracted driving from time to time. I don't know what the answer to that is, since it's more difficult to catch and prove But at the least we should all call out our friends or family if we see them doing it, the same way we would if they were about to drive while drunk.