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> Language complexity is a hotly debated topic in linguistics, with many different opposing views. They bring this up, don’t address it, then proceed to the re

> Language complexity is a hotly debated topic in linguistics, with many different opposing views. They bring this up, don’t address it, then proceed to the results anyways. The idea of grammatical or language complexity is very dubious. They seem to define it by number of distinctions. But, how is that inherently more complex? Wouldn’t we expect Russian children to start speaking later than, say, Chinese children? But we don’t actually see that, all children seem to learn their respective mother tongues at about the same rate. Now, if you’re an adult monolingual English speaker trying to learn Russian, then I’m sure the crazy conjugation and declination systems would appear complex. But it’s probably simply different rather than complex. 5 year old Russians seem to think that case declinations are the easiest thing in the world!

veqq 3y ago
Russian is an interesting situation, where the neuter gender is sort of dying in diaspora [1] communities or among young children. Currently, 13% of nouns are neuter, 41% feminine and 46% masculine. Before the education system and further exposure solidifies the standard, many children can form a 3 way distinction based on word ending. Consonant->masc., stressed -o->neuter, everything else -> feminine. In low proficiency speakers in heritage communities this often simplifies to consonant->masculine, everything else->feminine. [2] [1] https://d-nb.info/1205872779/34 https://d-nb.info/1205872779/34 [2] https://brill.com/view/journals/jlc/11/2/article-p233_233.xml?language=en https://brill.com/view/journals/jlc/11/2/article-p233_233.xm...
pessimizer 3y ago
> all children seem to learn their respective mother tongues at about the same rate. I need a reference for this. We don't even learn different features or sounds of our own languages at the same rate; some are harder and take longer, some are easier and we get them quickly. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be stereotyped ways that we have for imitating childish speech. This honestly sounds like the law of averages rearing its head again. There aren't many languages that five or ten years of immersion and few other responsibilities (like a child has) couldn't make easy, but that doesn't mean that all languages are equally difficult for their native speakers.
pezezin 3y ago
I remember reading somewhere that Polish children do take longer than speakers of other languages to achieve full fluency, due to the complexities of the Polish language. Unfortunately my Internet connection is super slow right now, so I can't look for references.

veqq 3y ago

Russian is an interesting situation, where the neuter gender is sort of dying in diaspora [1] communities or among young children. Currently, 13% of nouns are neuter, 41% feminine and 46% masculine. Before the education system and further exposure solidifies the standard, many children can form a 3 way distinction based on word ending. Consonant->masc., stressed -o->neuter, everything else -> feminine. In low proficiency speakers in heritage communities this often simplifies to consonant->masculine, everything else->feminine. [2] [1] https://d-nb.info/1205872779/34 https://d-nb.info/1205872779/34 [2] https://brill.com/view/journals/jlc/11/2/article-p233_233.xml?language=en https://brill.com/view/journals/jlc/11/2/article-p233_233.xm...

pessimizer 3y ago

> all children seem to learn their respective mother tongues at about the same rate. I need a reference for this. We don't even learn different features or sounds of our own languages at the same rate; some are harder and take longer, some are easier and we get them quickly. If this weren't true, there wouldn't be stereotyped ways that we have for imitating childish speech. This honestly sounds like the law of averages rearing its head again. There aren't many languages that five or ten years of immersion and few other responsibilities (like a child has) couldn't make easy, but that doesn't mean that all languages are equally difficult for their native speakers.

pezezin 3y ago

I remember reading somewhere that Polish children do take longer than speakers of other languages to achieve full fluency, due to the complexities of the Polish language. Unfortunately my Internet connection is super slow right now, so I can't look for references.