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You are right that there is a lot of plastic crap out there leading to physical waste. But remember that capitalism doesn’t optimize for minimal physical waste

You are right that there is a lot of plastic crap out there leading to physical waste. But remember that capitalism doesn’t optimize for minimal physical waste - it optimizes for minimal waste overall. This includes cost of capital, human brainpower, opportunity cost, taxes, input material, and of course, physical waste. So the optimal product doesn’t necessarily last forever - that would involve an unaccetable amount of investment in material and labor. One must also take tech progress into account - consumers may not want a product that lasts forever, since they might want version 2.0 some years down the line, and throw away a perfectly functional version 1.0.

kerkeslager 3y ago
> But remember that capitalism doesn’t optimize for minimal physical waste - it optimizes for minimal waste overall. No, at best it optimizes for minimal waste of capital. If you can't find a way to use it for marketing or to receive subsidies, giving food to people who can't afford to pay for it is the same as throwing away food within capitalism: both are waste in a capitalist sense. Material waste is only relevant within capitalism inasmuch as the material in question is valuable.
surgical_fire 3y ago
> But remember that capitalism doesn’t optimize for minimal physical waste - it optimizes for minimal waste overall. Such a weird take. Capitalism only optimizes to increase profit. If waste is profitable, it will be very wasteful, especially if the downsides of this waste can be externalized. This is obvious in terms of pollution and physical waste, but given the perfect perverse incentives, it will also waste human brainpower, opportunity cost, et cetera and so forth.
- throwaw1yyy 3y ago
  It doesn’t and learning any bit of rigorous economics would show how off you are
- FredPret 3y ago
  How can economic waste be profitable? Maximum profit = minimum (economic) waste. Minimizing physical waste isn’t always a good thing. Take it to an extreme to illustrate: one million engineers spend their whole careers to make a platinum toaster that will last billion years. On the other extreme: one engineer slaps together a plastic toaster that breaks when you put the bread in. Somewhere in between those two is an optimal point. We have to balance our energy, resources, brainpower, time, physical waste, and optionality effectively. That balancing point is the perfect toaster, it makes a ton of profit, it doesn’t break before one use, and it doesn’t last forever either.
  - Moomoomoo309 3y ago
    Economic waste, as it seemed the previous commenter meant, can definitely be profitable. The cleanup of that waste can be treated as an externality that the company doesn't have to pay for at all - that was done a lot in prior decades when they would dump chemicals, for instance. The damage and waste plastic causes to the overall environment is the same way: the companies producing that plastic do not have to pay to clean it up, so that cost for them isn't counted because it's being paid for elsewhere.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      Fair point. That is a form of legislation and regulation I heartily support: addressing the tragedy of the commons, and de-distorting the market (most regulation introduces new distortions). Things like a carbon tax, or making especially dirty companies clean up their own pollution. This aligns minimum total economic waste, which includes environmental damage, with maximum profit.

kerkeslager 3y ago

> But remember that capitalism doesn’t optimize for minimal physical waste - it optimizes for minimal waste overall. No, at best it optimizes for minimal waste of capital. If you can't find a way to use it for marketing or to receive subsidies, giving food to people who can't afford to pay for it is the same as throwing away food within capitalism: both are waste in a capitalist sense. Material waste is only relevant within capitalism inasmuch as the material in question is valuable.

surgical_fire 3y ago

> But remember that capitalism doesn’t optimize for minimal physical waste - it optimizes for minimal waste overall. Such a weird take. Capitalism only optimizes to increase profit. If waste is profitable, it will be very wasteful, especially if the downsides of this waste can be externalized. This is obvious in terms of pollution and physical waste, but given the perfect perverse incentives, it will also waste human brainpower, opportunity cost, et cetera and so forth.

throwaw1yyy 3y ago
It doesn’t and learning any bit of rigorous economics would show how off you are
FredPret 3y ago
How can economic waste be profitable? Maximum profit = minimum (economic) waste. Minimizing physical waste isn’t always a good thing. Take it to an extreme to illustrate: one million engineers spend their whole careers to make a platinum toaster that will last billion years. On the other extreme: one engineer slaps together a plastic toaster that breaks when you put the bread in. Somewhere in between those two is an optimal point. We have to balance our energy, resources, brainpower, time, physical waste, and optionality effectively. That balancing point is the perfect toaster, it makes a ton of profit, it doesn’t break before one use, and it doesn’t last forever either.
- Moomoomoo309 3y ago
  Economic waste, as it seemed the previous commenter meant, can definitely be profitable. The cleanup of that waste can be treated as an externality that the company doesn't have to pay for at all - that was done a lot in prior decades when they would dump chemicals, for instance. The damage and waste plastic causes to the overall environment is the same way: the companies producing that plastic do not have to pay to clean it up, so that cost for them isn't counted because it's being paid for elsewhere.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Fair point. That is a form of legislation and regulation I heartily support: addressing the tragedy of the commons, and de-distorting the market (most regulation introduces new distortions). Things like a carbon tax, or making especially dirty companies clean up their own pollution. This aligns minimum total economic waste, which includes environmental damage, with maximum profit.