6 ms·

No. More, cheaper houses and housing complexes instead. More apartments only makes lack of home ownership worse. You're always paying someone else for somethin

No. More, cheaper houses and housing complexes instead. More apartments only makes lack of home ownership worse. You're always paying someone else for something you will never own. Rent payments go down a black hole. Mortgage payments at least result in an actual asset, and eventually end.

robotburrito 3y ago
You can buy an apartment. Many do in cities.
- monkaiju 3y ago
  Isnt that what makes it a condo not an apartment?
  - distances 3y ago
    I recently learned that it is, but that's not at all obvious for non-US people. In Europe an apartment is an apartment, and the ownership status is a separate matter. Condo is a not a word anyone uses or probably even understands over here.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  i think the definition is a bit sketchy as some would say that if you can buy it, it is not an apartment.
whimsicalism 3y ago
America doesn't need more urban sprawl and the stigma against renting is ridiculous. > Rent payments go down a black hole. Mortgage payments at least result in an actual asset, and eventually end. Generally making rent payments and investing the money you would have spent on the house in the stock market will get you further ahead in terms of ownership stake than just making payments on a mortgage. The only reason this is not true is due to massive, massive government subsidies of owners at the expense of renters (ie. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac acting as lenders of last resort for nonsense mortgages that no private bank would have ever granted without this support).
- guestbest 3y ago
  If preference against renting is cultural, what cultures celebrate renting over ownership?
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    My personal culture that I adhere to. That said, I mentioned stigma, I didn't say anything about culture - and I'm not sure why it is at all relevant to my point.
  - medvezhenok 3y ago
    Renting is much more common in Europe and renters have significantly more rights. This is because much more wealth in Europe is generational (although we are quickly moving in that direction in the U.S. as well). Some European countries have things like the imputed rent tax (basically taxing homeowners as if they were renting their own home). This goes a long way towards balancing the scales between homeowners & renters.
- HumblyTossed 3y ago
  > America doesn't need more urban sprawl and the stigma against renting is ridiculous. Not that there isn't a stigma against renting, but, does one really want to be renting during retirement when most people's income is fixed? And yes, there are ongoing costs to ownership, but you can possibly plan for those better. You can't really plan for your land lord to raise rent by 50% because the media tells him the market is hot and he can do that.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    Yes, there are downsides of the flexibility that renting provides. So if you feel a need to buy a home, you should be able to do it. But the government should not be propping up unsustainable markets at considerable risk to the rest of us to let you do so - if you can afford a home and get a bank to lend you the money and assume the risk, you should be able to. But I am not sacrificing my ability to afford quality housing to give you government-guaranteed mortgages, it's a massive moral hazard. If you need the fixed-income security, pay for it.
returningfory2 3y ago
The question of whether renting or buying is more financially beneficial is highly complex, and certainly it is not always the case that buying is better. Additionally, there are non-financial reasons why some people prefer to rent. So IMO we shouldn't be designing housing policy around everyone becoming an owner.
Analemma_ 3y ago
I bought a condo in 2021 (at a fantastic interest rate), and am currently regretting it deeply because my life circumstances changed and I probably need to move to a different state, meaning I need to either sell the place at a considerable loss or become an out-of-state landlord, which I don't want to do and is unlikely to turn a profit for me. The flexibility of renting is a real and important phenomenon: people's lives change unexpectedly sometimes.
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  I regret not buying an apt in 2021 at a fantastic interest rate. Even though I moved since then, it would have been very easy to rent it, and inflation would have paid for it. Since then, interest rates have only increased, and in my location, real estate is at a record high. It's been increasing pretty much since the 90s without a break. I don't believe a bubble will break any time soon. Also, materials/energy is getting more expensive, there's a lack of labour, so even building/renovating places isn't an option.
notaustinpowers 3y ago
I support this, but it would require so many more city and county level law changes to implement. Many counties have zoning laws in place that require homes to be a certain square footage (my county is 1,500sqft), that also have to be built on-site, and must have 2 off-street parking spots, and must be 50 feet from the edges of the property line, etc. While making townhome-style housing impossible due to those same zoning regulations. While providing tax incentives to luxury apartment complexes. These zoning restrictions would need to be rewritten first, and incentives given to developers to create high-volume, inexpensive housing. With restrictions preventing them from selling to built-to-rent companies. But zoning restrictions are incredibly difficult to rewrite. A woman from a county in GA is having to sue the county to try to adjust their zoning restrictions and the counties constitution states that zoning can only be used to protect the health of the citizens. And their restrictions banning off-site built homes or small homes does nothing to protect health since they're built to the same standards as larger site-built homes.
- mcphage 3y ago
  > But zoning restrictions are incredibly difficult to rewrite. I really want to know how they got written in the first place. It seems clear that somehow, zoning regulations is one of the biggest issues we've got. But everyone has these onerous zoning regulations that make life worse... where did they come from?!
  - medvezhenok 3y ago
    I think most zoning regulations came as a backlash to the crime waves in the 60s/70s and were intended to keep "safe" neighborhoods "safe". This uses house prices as a tool to separate people into "desirables" and "undesirables" (roughly). China (and the former Soviet Union) did/does it more explicitly via the hukou system - if you don't have a hukou, you can't live in a given city nor attend the school/use the city's resources. The process in the Soviet Union might not have involved financial capital, but it involved human capital (i.e. if your profession was not "respectable", or if you were ever convicted of a criminal act, you might not receive permission to get an apartment (or even a room) in a top tier city like St. Petersburg or Moscow)

robotburrito 3y ago

You can buy an apartment. Many do in cities.

monkaiju 3y ago
Isnt that what makes it a condo not an apartment?
- distances 3y ago
  I recently learned that it is, but that's not at all obvious for non-US people. In Europe an apartment is an apartment, and the ownership status is a separate matter. Condo is a not a word anyone uses or probably even understands over here.
whimsicalism 3y ago
i think the definition is a bit sketchy as some would say that if you can buy it, it is not an apartment.

whimsicalism 3y ago

America doesn't need more urban sprawl and the stigma against renting is ridiculous. > Rent payments go down a black hole. Mortgage payments at least result in an actual asset, and eventually end. Generally making rent payments and investing the money you would have spent on the house in the stock market will get you further ahead in terms of ownership stake than just making payments on a mortgage. The only reason this is not true is due to massive, massive government subsidies of owners at the expense of renters (ie. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac acting as lenders of last resort for nonsense mortgages that no private bank would have ever granted without this support).

guestbest 3y ago
If preference against renting is cultural, what cultures celebrate renting over ownership?
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  My personal culture that I adhere to. That said, I mentioned stigma, I didn't say anything about culture - and I'm not sure why it is at all relevant to my point.
- medvezhenok 3y ago
  Renting is much more common in Europe and renters have significantly more rights. This is because much more wealth in Europe is generational (although we are quickly moving in that direction in the U.S. as well). Some European countries have things like the imputed rent tax (basically taxing homeowners as if they were renting their own home). This goes a long way towards balancing the scales between homeowners & renters.
HumblyTossed 3y ago
> America doesn't need more urban sprawl and the stigma against renting is ridiculous. Not that there isn't a stigma against renting, but, does one really want to be renting during retirement when most people's income is fixed? And yes, there are ongoing costs to ownership, but you can possibly plan for those better. You can't really plan for your land lord to raise rent by 50% because the media tells him the market is hot and he can do that.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Yes, there are downsides of the flexibility that renting provides. So if you feel a need to buy a home, you should be able to do it. But the government should not be propping up unsustainable markets at considerable risk to the rest of us to let you do so - if you can afford a home and get a bank to lend you the money and assume the risk, you should be able to. But I am not sacrificing my ability to afford quality housing to give you government-guaranteed mortgages, it's a massive moral hazard. If you need the fixed-income security, pay for it.

returningfory2 3y ago

The question of whether renting or buying is more financially beneficial is highly complex, and certainly it is not always the case that buying is better. Additionally, there are non-financial reasons why some people prefer to rent. So IMO we shouldn't be designing housing policy around everyone becoming an owner.

Analemma_ 3y ago

I bought a condo in 2021 (at a fantastic interest rate), and am currently regretting it deeply because my life circumstances changed and I probably need to move to a different state, meaning I need to either sell the place at a considerable loss or become an out-of-state landlord, which I don't want to do and is unlikely to turn a profit for me. The flexibility of renting is a real and important phenomenon: people's lives change unexpectedly sometimes.

yodsanklai 3y ago
I regret not buying an apt in 2021 at a fantastic interest rate. Even though I moved since then, it would have been very easy to rent it, and inflation would have paid for it. Since then, interest rates have only increased, and in my location, real estate is at a record high. It's been increasing pretty much since the 90s without a break. I don't believe a bubble will break any time soon. Also, materials/energy is getting more expensive, there's a lack of labour, so even building/renovating places isn't an option.

notaustinpowers 3y ago

I support this, but it would require so many more city and county level law changes to implement. Many counties have zoning laws in place that require homes to be a certain square footage (my county is 1,500sqft), that also have to be built on-site, and must have 2 off-street parking spots, and must be 50 feet from the edges of the property line, etc. While making townhome-style housing impossible due to those same zoning regulations. While providing tax incentives to luxury apartment complexes. These zoning restrictions would need to be rewritten first, and incentives given to developers to create high-volume, inexpensive housing. With restrictions preventing them from selling to built-to-rent companies. But zoning restrictions are incredibly difficult to rewrite. A woman from a county in GA is having to sue the county to try to adjust their zoning restrictions and the counties constitution states that zoning can only be used to protect the health of the citizens. And their restrictions banning off-site built homes or small homes does nothing to protect health since they're built to the same standards as larger site-built homes.

mcphage 3y ago
> But zoning restrictions are incredibly difficult to rewrite. I really want to know how they got written in the first place. It seems clear that somehow, zoning regulations is one of the biggest issues we've got. But everyone has these onerous zoning regulations that make life worse... where did they come from?!
- medvezhenok 3y ago
  I think most zoning regulations came as a backlash to the crime waves in the 60s/70s and were intended to keep "safe" neighborhoods "safe". This uses house prices as a tool to separate people into "desirables" and "undesirables" (roughly). China (and the former Soviet Union) did/does it more explicitly via the hukou system - if you don't have a hukou, you can't live in a given city nor attend the school/use the city's resources. The process in the Soviet Union might not have involved financial capital, but it involved human capital (i.e. if your profession was not "respectable", or if you were ever convicted of a criminal act, you might not receive permission to get an apartment (or even a room) in a top tier city like St. Petersburg or Moscow)