4 ms·

So let me get this straight: the newspaper was investigating a liquor license request and using public records found the applicant had DUI arrests. The newspape

by jmyeet 3y ago

So let me get this straight: the newspaper was investigating a liquor license request and using public records found the applicant had DUI arrests. The newspaper handed over this information to the police without publishing it. The police responded by alleging some kind of crime related to this request, signing an affidavit to that effect. The judge who approved the search warrant is Magistrate Judge Laura Viar. Plot twist: that judge herself has 2 DUI arrests [1]. My first question when I heard about this raid was "what judge signed off on the search warrant and what were they told?" You can read the affidavit [2], which has since been withdrawn. Any investigation should look at the judge who signed off on conducting a search of a newspaper, for which the bar should be extremely high. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194392001/judge-who-signed-kansas-newspaper-search-warrant-had-2-dui-arrests-reports-say https://www.npr.org/2023/08/17/1194392001/judge-who-signed-k... [2]: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23919909-marion-county-record-affidavit https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23919909-marion-coun...

QuantumGood 3y ago
Many years I eavesdropped in on a conversation between two guys each with multiple DUIs. They were telling stories about people in government who "get it", including police, that they shouldn't be punished for just driving home from the bar, or going out for more pretzels, etc. Incredible self-justifying stories of "everyone knows" the DUI punishment system is bullshit.
- randombits0 3y ago
  That line of thinking is so prevalent it’s a standard polygraph test question! “Have you ever driven while intoxicated?” The examiner expects “No” and uses the reaction to gauge what a lie looks like for the remainder of the test. Never driven drunk? Screw you! antipoligraph.org
- Clubber 3y ago
  I believe our current state of DUI laws were pressured into passing my special interest groups such as M.A.D.D. Laws in many states are so strict that you can get a DUI if you decide to "sleep it off," in your car without driving anywhere, as long as you have the keys near you. I believe this would seem to incentivize drunk driving.
  - chuchurocka 3y ago
    I’m not sure about other states, but in Kansas you can sleep it off provided that your keys never go into the ignition. Not sure how this works with keyless ignition now though.
- jmyeet 3y ago
  This is a deep problem that extends to sexual harassment, sex crimes and child predation. You see entities like churches who systemically cover up and essentially defend child predators and you ask yourself why. Why didn't that organization "clean house" and report offenders to law enforcement? The usual answer given is they don't want the scandal and bad PR but that doesn't really hold water anymore given all the negative publicity surrounding, for example, the Mormon and Catholic churches around this issue. What I think you'll find if you look deeper is the leadership is infected with a sufficient number of people who (as you put it) "get it". Religious doctrine complicates this as many such religions blame the sexual desire in men on women tempting them and yes, this can go to some horrific extremes. Sexual harassment also seems to become endemic in organizations as those who should be holding underlines responsible for their bad behaviour also "get it" and don't see it as a problem. Less horrific, I'm sure many on here have experienced bullying as a child. How many of you that have tried to report such problems and were told things like "boys will be boys" or "they're just playing" about abusive behavior, even serious abuse? I've thought about this a lot: how do these people who "get it" find each other? I doubt it's ever verbally explicit. It seems to be a dark form of tribalism to identify people who are "one of us". We had some significant cases in police departments recently (eg Antioch). This kind of clustering belies negligence, selection or both. This can get so bad that, for example, the LA County Sheriffs are essentially a collection of deputy gangs.
  - mywittyname 3y ago
    > how do these people who "get it" find each other? Jokes. Assholes tend to make jokes at other peoples' expense. If someone else joins in on the off-color jokes, then you know they are the same kind of asshole you are.
celtoid 3y ago
It's even worse than that. The newspaper was also investigating the police chief who ordered the raid on the paper. [0] [0] https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the-newspaper https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the...
justin66 3y ago
> So let me get this straight: the newspaper was investigating a liquor license request and using public records found the applicant had DUI arrests. They used the public records system to verify information they'd already received from an informant.
- dylan604 3y ago
  While the information might be public, I read something about the system used to look up the information wasn't exactly a public system where the one doing the looking up did not normally have access. Essentially, it was a reporter taking a shortcut. This is why they ultimately decided to not publish the story because the confirmation was on shaky ground
  - mywittyname 3y ago
    What's the not-exactly-public-system here? I assume its a one of the commercially available services that collect this information from the governments and sell it back to governments and non-governments, alike.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I don't recall. It was just an article I read on the subject this weekend, and I don't even remember who published it to even attempt to look it up. However, I don't know why the specific service actually matters. There's a word for a person not granted access to a system accessing the system without permission. It's in the name of this website
      - justin66 3y ago
        You've defined down "hacker" pretty badly if debatably not using a publicly accessible website for its intended purpose according to the posted terms of service now qualifies.
        dylan604 3y ago
wildzzz 3y ago
Looking at the affidavit, it seems that Zorn may have lied about the purpose of the DOR request. Nothing in the list explicitly applies to a journalist researching specific people. Option E almost sounds relevant but it's just for debt collection matters. Option M maybe could be relevant if doing a public records request in regards to a liquor license is legal under Kansas law is related to "public safety". If Zorn really did lie about her identity to obtain the records, it does sound like a crime was committed here. Obviously there is some beef between the paper and some people in the town. Off topic: Is it really necessary to have such a bureaucratic process for obtaining a liquor license? Why does having a DUI prohibit you from selling liquor? I remember talking to a local taco shop that wanted to sell beers for dining-in consumption. He had to put an ad out in the local paper saying how he was applying for a liquor license to give everyone notice and time to submit any comments to the ABC board.
- theptip 3y ago
  > Why does having a DUI prohibit you from selling liquor? The US is still really puritanical about alcohol, particularly liquor. It's still illegal to distill in many states, and craft distilleries have to bring per-state campaigns to have it legalized. You only have to go back a few decades to find it illegal to brew craft beer in many states. This is all commercial, it's completely illegal to home-distill AFAIK. Basically, prohibition was never fully rolled back, and it has taken ages for the restrictions to gradually be removed. Particularly in more-religious areas, there's still a deep moral disapproval of alcohol, particularly hard alcohol.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    Also, more importantly: taxes. And in the South / Midwest: religion. As to taxes, alcohol licensing and sales bring in revenue, so state limitation increases the value of a license. As to religion, politicians can trumpet about how they're keeping vice limited in the area. PS: Example irony: the Tennessee town where Jack Daniels is made (Lynchburg) is in a dry county (Moore).
theptip 3y ago
The complaint seems to be: > On Friday August 4, 2023 at or around 1851 hours I received an email from Eric Meyer. In. the email he states that he received a copy of someone's private Department of Revenue Records... I then contacted Marion City Administrator, Brogan Jones, and told him that an internal investigation should be conducted. Brogan stated he was aware of the Department of Revenue Record (DOR record) because City Council member~ Ruth Herbel, sent him a screenshot via email of the DOR record belonging to Kari Newell. > My investigation revealed the letter was not stolen from her mailbox, rather it was downloaded directly from the Department of Revenue. The Department of Revenue advised the individuals who downloaded the information were Phyllis Zorn and "Kari Newell"... Downloading the document involved either impersonating the victim or lying about the reasons why the record was being sought. (p5 of the affidavit). This seems to clearly contradict your claim that the newspaper was using public records. I have no idea if a search and seizure warrant is a proportionate response to a private record being accessed like this, but whoever downloaded the document pretty clearly breached the law. Around here its common to think "if it's available by clicking through pages on the internet it's public" but that's not how the legal system tends to see things. In this case breaking a "pinkie promise that I have a legal reason to request this record" might be enough to give air cover for the search. To be clear I'm not supporting this raid, it's a bad look and it's not obvious that it's reasonable to assume there would be evidence of a crime on those computers, but it does seem there is another side to the story here, and it's not as simple as the narrative that's been spun by the defendants. Checkpointing the rest of my investigation; IANAL, here's what I found on the specific violation that someone committed: The penalties for violating the DPPA are outlined in 18 U.S.C. § 2724. They include: > Criminal Penalties: A person who knowingly violates the DPPA can be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. > Civil Penalties: The Attorney General may bring a civil action in a U.S. district court against any person or entity that violates the DPPA. The court may award: > Actual damages, but not less than liquidated damages in the amount of $2,500; Punitive damages upon proof of willful or reckless disregard of the law; Reasonable attorneys' fees and other litigation costs; and Such other preliminary and equitable relief as the court determines to be appropriate. Private Right of Action: An individual driver may bring a civil action in a U.S. district court against a person or entity that violates the DPPA with respect to that driver's information. The court may award the same types of damages as in a civil action brought by the Attorney General. Now again, you could argue that the Kansas DMV was negligent here, and the ToS that was clicked through was invalid? I'm not sure what precedent would say on that one. Interested in others' thoughts, if anyone has more experience here.

by jmyeet 3y ago

QuantumGood 3y ago

Many years I eavesdropped in on a conversation between two guys each with multiple DUIs. They were telling stories about people in government who "get it", including police, that they shouldn't be punished for just driving home from the bar, or going out for more pretzels, etc. Incredible self-justifying stories of "everyone knows" the DUI punishment system is bullshit.

randombits0 3y ago
That line of thinking is so prevalent it’s a standard polygraph test question! “Have you ever driven while intoxicated?” The examiner expects “No” and uses the reaction to gauge what a lie looks like for the remainder of the test. Never driven drunk? Screw you! antipoligraph.org
Clubber 3y ago
I believe our current state of DUI laws were pressured into passing my special interest groups such as M.A.D.D. Laws in many states are so strict that you can get a DUI if you decide to "sleep it off," in your car without driving anywhere, as long as you have the keys near you. I believe this would seem to incentivize drunk driving.
- chuchurocka 3y ago
  I’m not sure about other states, but in Kansas you can sleep it off provided that your keys never go into the ignition. Not sure how this works with keyless ignition now though.
jmyeet 3y ago
This is a deep problem that extends to sexual harassment, sex crimes and child predation. You see entities like churches who systemically cover up and essentially defend child predators and you ask yourself why. Why didn't that organization "clean house" and report offenders to law enforcement? The usual answer given is they don't want the scandal and bad PR but that doesn't really hold water anymore given all the negative publicity surrounding, for example, the Mormon and Catholic churches around this issue. What I think you'll find if you look deeper is the leadership is infected with a sufficient number of people who (as you put it) "get it". Religious doctrine complicates this as many such religions blame the sexual desire in men on women tempting them and yes, this can go to some horrific extremes. Sexual harassment also seems to become endemic in organizations as those who should be holding underlines responsible for their bad behaviour also "get it" and don't see it as a problem. Less horrific, I'm sure many on here have experienced bullying as a child. How many of you that have tried to report such problems and were told things like "boys will be boys" or "they're just playing" about abusive behavior, even serious abuse? I've thought about this a lot: how do these people who "get it" find each other? I doubt it's ever verbally explicit. It seems to be a dark form of tribalism to identify people who are "one of us". We had some significant cases in police departments recently (eg Antioch). This kind of clustering belies negligence, selection or both. This can get so bad that, for example, the LA County Sheriffs are essentially a collection of deputy gangs.
- mywittyname 3y ago
  > how do these people who "get it" find each other? Jokes. Assholes tend to make jokes at other peoples' expense. If someone else joins in on the off-color jokes, then you know they are the same kind of asshole you are.

celtoid 3y ago

It's even worse than that. The newspaper was also investigating the police chief who ordered the raid on the paper. [0] [0] https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the-newspaper https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the...

justin66 3y ago

> So let me get this straight: the newspaper was investigating a liquor license request and using public records found the applicant had DUI arrests. They used the public records system to verify information they'd already received from an informant.

dylan604 3y ago
While the information might be public, I read something about the system used to look up the information wasn't exactly a public system where the one doing the looking up did not normally have access. Essentially, it was a reporter taking a shortcut. This is why they ultimately decided to not publish the story because the confirmation was on shaky ground
- mywittyname 3y ago
  What's the not-exactly-public-system here? I assume its a one of the commercially available services that collect this information from the governments and sell it back to governments and non-governments, alike.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I don't recall. It was just an article I read on the subject this weekend, and I don't even remember who published it to even attempt to look it up. However, I don't know why the specific service actually matters. There's a word for a person not granted access to a system accessing the system without permission. It's in the name of this website
    - justin66 3y ago
      You've defined down "hacker" pretty badly if debatably not using a publicly accessible website for its intended purpose according to the posted terms of service now qualifies.
      - dylan604 3y ago

wildzzz 3y ago

Looking at the affidavit, it seems that Zorn may have lied about the purpose of the DOR request. Nothing in the list explicitly applies to a journalist researching specific people. Option E almost sounds relevant but it's just for debt collection matters. Option M maybe could be relevant if doing a public records request in regards to a liquor license is legal under Kansas law is related to "public safety". If Zorn really did lie about her identity to obtain the records, it does sound like a crime was committed here. Obviously there is some beef between the paper and some people in the town. Off topic: Is it really necessary to have such a bureaucratic process for obtaining a liquor license? Why does having a DUI prohibit you from selling liquor? I remember talking to a local taco shop that wanted to sell beers for dining-in consumption. He had to put an ad out in the local paper saying how he was applying for a liquor license to give everyone notice and time to submit any comments to the ABC board.

theptip 3y ago
> Why does having a DUI prohibit you from selling liquor? The US is still really puritanical about alcohol, particularly liquor. It's still illegal to distill in many states, and craft distilleries have to bring per-state campaigns to have it legalized. You only have to go back a few decades to find it illegal to brew craft beer in many states. This is all commercial, it's completely illegal to home-distill AFAIK. Basically, prohibition was never fully rolled back, and it has taken ages for the restrictions to gradually be removed. Particularly in more-religious areas, there's still a deep moral disapproval of alcohol, particularly hard alcohol.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Also, more importantly: taxes. And in the South / Midwest: religion. As to taxes, alcohol licensing and sales bring in revenue, so state limitation increases the value of a license. As to religion, politicians can trumpet about how they're keeping vice limited in the area. PS: Example irony: the Tennessee town where Jack Daniels is made (Lynchburg) is in a dry county (Moore).

theptip 3y ago

The complaint seems to be: > On Friday August 4, 2023 at or around 1851 hours I received an email from Eric Meyer. In. the email he states that he received a copy of someone's private Department of Revenue Records... I then contacted Marion City Administrator, Brogan Jones, and told him that an internal investigation should be conducted. Brogan stated he was aware of the Department of Revenue Record (DOR record) because City Council member~ Ruth Herbel, sent him a screenshot via email of the DOR record belonging to Kari Newell. > My investigation revealed the letter was not stolen from her mailbox, rather it was downloaded directly from the Department of Revenue. The Department of Revenue advised the individuals who downloaded the information were Phyllis Zorn and "Kari Newell"... Downloading the document involved either impersonating the victim or lying about the reasons why the record was being sought. (p5 of the affidavit). This seems to clearly contradict your claim that the newspaper was using public records. I have no idea if a search and seizure warrant is a proportionate response to a private record being accessed like this, but whoever downloaded the document pretty clearly breached the law. Around here its common to think "if it's available by clicking through pages on the internet it's public" but that's not how the legal system tends to see things. In this case breaking a "pinkie promise that I have a legal reason to request this record" might be enough to give air cover for the search. To be clear I'm not supporting this raid, it's a bad look and it's not obvious that it's reasonable to assume there would be evidence of a crime on those computers, but it does seem there is another side to the story here, and it's not as simple as the narrative that's been spun by the defendants. Checkpointing the rest of my investigation; IANAL, here's what I found on the specific violation that someone committed: The penalties for violating the DPPA are outlined in 18 U.S.C. § 2724. They include: > Criminal Penalties: A person who knowingly violates the DPPA can be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. > Civil Penalties: The Attorney General may bring a civil action in a U.S. district court against any person or entity that violates the DPPA. The court may award: > Actual damages, but not less than liquidated damages in the amount of $2,500; Punitive damages upon proof of willful or reckless disregard of the law; Reasonable attorneys' fees and other litigation costs; and Such other preliminary and equitable relief as the court determines to be appropriate. Private Right of Action: An individual driver may bring a civil action in a U.S. district court against a person or entity that violates the DPPA with respect to that driver's information. The court may award the same types of damages as in a civil action brought by the Attorney General. Now again, you could argue that the Kansas DMV was negligent here, and the ToS that was clicked through was invalid? I'm not sure what precedent would say on that one. Interested in others' thoughts, if anyone has more experience here.