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TL;DR: I suggest you ignore random recruiters. Recruiters are paid to get someone (you?) to a position: it is not their job to care on whether that's the best

TL;DR: I suggest you ignore random recruiters. Recruiters are paid to get someone (you?) to a position: it is not their job to care on whether that's the best choice for you. The recommendations on the article require quite a lot of time managing recruiters, and it is only a matter of time, if everybody starts using these "techniques" that recruiters will devise defenses... So I'll give an opposite view: ignore random recruiters. Use the time to setup alerts for companies/jobs you really aspire to get to, and fight for those instead.

spaceywilly 3y ago
There’s also a cost to getting a job using a recruiter vs. finding it on your own. The company has to pay the recruiter, which means less money available for you in the negotiation process.
- thedougd 3y ago
  This can go either way. At my present company, HR budget eats the recruiter cost because it is seen as outsourcing an HR function. Others may charge it back to the hiring department and it’s eating into hiring bonus budget. Otoh, many companies pay hiring bonuses out of the HR budget.
smith7018 3y ago
Do you have any advice on how to set up those alerts? I've noticed that a lot of the companies that I would like to work for only list roles on their sites rather than Indeed.
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  I use glassdoor and LinkedIn to do that.
- diarrhea 3y ago
  https://github.com/dgtlmoon/changedetection.io https://github.com/dgtlmoon/changedetection.io
juujian 3y ago
Yup. Getting hit up by people who definitely just pasted my name into a text snippet, or by an email campaign -- I don't think it's worth it.
bluGill 3y ago
Many companies start with recruiters though, so you may need to start with a recruiter if you want to get in. It is easy to call a recruiter and ask for someone on a 6 month contract, at the end of 6 months you either know they are good and hire them (and they know you are good), or you know they are bad and close the contract finding a new person. Hacker News regularly has articles about hiring, but nobody gives evidence their hiring process is actually any good - they just state what they do and why they believe in it - but this looks like a religious belief not something verified by any form of rigor.
whack 3y ago
That's the beauty of the free market. Farmers are paid to put food in someone's (your?) belly: it is not their job to care on whether that's the best choice for you. And yet, they make my life a whole lot better. I've noticed that the most lucrative jobs are seldom "alertable" public postings. And even if they are publicly posted, submitting my resume through a jobs-portal has an extremely low chance of producing an interview. The best ROI for my time has always come from responding to recruiters who message me with a comp range that fits my expectations.
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  Many times they inflate the compensation range, title, etc. to get attention.
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  > I've noticed that the most lucrative jobs are seldom "alertable" public postings. I haven't really come across those kind of positions that are secret or not advertised. > The best ROI for my time has always come from responding to recruiters who message me... That's a very romantic view of the real-world experience of random messages on LinkedIn, many times with even the wrong name on them.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >That's a very romantic view of the real-world experience of random messages on LinkedIn, many times with even the wrong name on them. They never said the worst ROI didn't also come from responding to recuiters. I've met great ones that lead me to interesting roles and ones that tried to gaslight me on the same platform. It's a people problem more than a recruiter problem specifically.
  - znpy 3y ago
    > many times with even the wrong name on them. "GREAT COMPANY, MARKET LEADER, LOOKING FOR AN EXPERIENCED PHYTON DEVELOPPER" I wish i was joking, but this isn't that far from what i received, multiple times. Yes, the caps lock is part of the message.
digitalsushi 3y ago
In 2019 I got catfished by a recruiter. They put together the perfect story for me. I would be able to give back, change the world, have a connection, do something real. They picked at my tumbler and opened the lock. The company I interviewed for was the same sugary sweet continuation. World's A-class HR department, it was like getting pumped to go on a cruise. Boy, was I about to get duped. I got hired, and, it's the same sad song I won't bore you with - I ended up in a cube as a professional bench warmer, never getting access to any environments, just being paid to keep a cube ready for a shrink wrapped, ready to go engineer someday, I guess. I only made it to month 5 before I blew out. My old company took me back. They got a much more loyal version of myself. I'm glad to have the experience - one and done. The same recruiter hit me up a few months later. I told him what had happened. He didn't seem phased. I quipped, 'So I am surprised you're even willing to talk to me'. He said I made it to 90 days there and he got paid, he was ready to do it again, and what did I want for round 2?
- noman-land 3y ago
  I felt literal revulsion at the last sentence of this story.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
That's not what a TL;DR is. TL;DR: setup auto-responders, ask for a huge premium over current salary (the article suggests 50%), make sure salary aligns before doing any screening. Worst case you get data points on what the industry is paying. You can add your interpretation afterwards, but you can simply not TL;DR if you want to respond. ----- that said: >if everybody starts using these "techniques" that recruiters will devise defenses... good. for software engineers especially they shouldn't try to automate the process of finding talent. >Use the time to setup alerts for companies/jobs you really aspire to get to, and fight for those instead. that implies you have aspirations and not just whatever gives you the highest pay. At least, that's the vibe I get a lot from HN comments.
jwestbury 3y ago
Hard disagree. Respond to all of them. You never know when they'll contact you again for a job you're actually interested in, or when you'll be in need. I respond to and connect to most recruiters. It's been hugely beneficial to my career.
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  I see your point of view. TBH, I'm happy to connect with a recruiter that is a direct employee and recruiting for a company I'd be interested in applying directly (e.g. Apple). The randos I pass. Soon, I guess the way is to ditch LinkedIn as a whole, given it became just your normalised crap off-topic posts network.
nunez 3y ago
They don't get paid if you leave before 3-6 months, so only really shitty "butts in seats" recruiters (that usually offshore lead gen and qualification) will do this. Good recruiters will work with you to find something that fits you.
BizarroLand 3y ago
99% of recruiters that contact me have no idea where I live, no idea of my work history, no idea of my salary requirements and are always trying to pitch me ditch digging salaries in Calcutta. The number of times I receive a call or an email urgently requesting my application for a part time in person job doing desktop support in Texas or Maryland or Colorado or Florida when I live in Washington has become a satire of absurdity in my life now. To add insult to injury is how they're offering $11-$15 an hour to start, which is ridiculous for a job that requires certifications and at least an associates degree to begin with, but I guess that explains why they're not doing any research and just casting a huge net to see if they can catch anyone to fill the position. The cream on the coffee is when they call me and tell me about this wonderful job blah blah blah, great way to get your foot in the door blah blah blah and then proudly say how their salaries are very competitive and they're offering $40 to start. And I say, $40 an hour? And they recoil in horror and fall all over themselves to clarify they mean $40,000 a year And then I tell them I won't consider any job that isn't paying $75 at a minimum. And they say, "$75,000 a year? We might have some in that range." And I say, "No, $75 an hour" And they say, without fail, "NOBODY IS PAYING THAT MUCH!" as if they are personally offended that some peon pissant subhuman piece of garbage like myself is daring to waste their time And I let them rant for a minute and then I say, "Well, I'm already making over $70 an hour, so I would need more money than that to consider a move." And then the conversation gets real quiet for a moment, and then they mumble, "Well, if I hear of anything in your price range I'll keep you in mind..." and they hang up. This isn't a "it happened to me once" thing. This conversation has happened 3 times in the last 2 years, and many times before that. It's beyond a joke, parody isn't a strong enough word for it. It's maddening.

spaceywilly 3y ago

There’s also a cost to getting a job using a recruiter vs. finding it on your own. The company has to pay the recruiter, which means less money available for you in the negotiation process.

thedougd 3y ago
This can go either way. At my present company, HR budget eats the recruiter cost because it is seen as outsourcing an HR function. Others may charge it back to the hiring department and it’s eating into hiring bonus budget. Otoh, many companies pay hiring bonuses out of the HR budget.

smith7018 3y ago

Do you have any advice on how to set up those alerts? I've noticed that a lot of the companies that I would like to work for only list roles on their sites rather than Indeed.

hashtag-til 3y ago
I use glassdoor and LinkedIn to do that.
diarrhea 3y ago
https://github.com/dgtlmoon/changedetection.io https://github.com/dgtlmoon/changedetection.io

juujian 3y ago

Yup. Getting hit up by people who definitely just pasted my name into a text snippet, or by an email campaign -- I don't think it's worth it.

bluGill 3y ago

Many companies start with recruiters though, so you may need to start with a recruiter if you want to get in. It is easy to call a recruiter and ask for someone on a 6 month contract, at the end of 6 months you either know they are good and hire them (and they know you are good), or you know they are bad and close the contract finding a new person. Hacker News regularly has articles about hiring, but nobody gives evidence their hiring process is actually any good - they just state what they do and why they believe in it - but this looks like a religious belief not something verified by any form of rigor.

whack 3y ago

That's the beauty of the free market. Farmers are paid to put food in someone's (your?) belly: it is not their job to care on whether that's the best choice for you. And yet, they make my life a whole lot better. I've noticed that the most lucrative jobs are seldom "alertable" public postings. And even if they are publicly posted, submitting my resume through a jobs-portal has an extremely low chance of producing an interview. The best ROI for my time has always come from responding to recruiters who message me with a comp range that fits my expectations.

29athrowaway 3y ago
Many times they inflate the compensation range, title, etc. to get attention.
hashtag-til 3y ago
> I've noticed that the most lucrative jobs are seldom "alertable" public postings. I haven't really come across those kind of positions that are secret or not advertised. > The best ROI for my time has always come from responding to recruiters who message me... That's a very romantic view of the real-world experience of random messages on LinkedIn, many times with even the wrong name on them.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >That's a very romantic view of the real-world experience of random messages on LinkedIn, many times with even the wrong name on them. They never said the worst ROI didn't also come from responding to recuiters. I've met great ones that lead me to interesting roles and ones that tried to gaslight me on the same platform. It's a people problem more than a recruiter problem specifically.
- znpy 3y ago
  > many times with even the wrong name on them. "GREAT COMPANY, MARKET LEADER, LOOKING FOR AN EXPERIENCED PHYTON DEVELOPPER" I wish i was joking, but this isn't that far from what i received, multiple times. Yes, the caps lock is part of the message.

digitalsushi 3y ago

In 2019 I got catfished by a recruiter. They put together the perfect story for me. I would be able to give back, change the world, have a connection, do something real. They picked at my tumbler and opened the lock. The company I interviewed for was the same sugary sweet continuation. World's A-class HR department, it was like getting pumped to go on a cruise. Boy, was I about to get duped. I got hired, and, it's the same sad song I won't bore you with - I ended up in a cube as a professional bench warmer, never getting access to any environments, just being paid to keep a cube ready for a shrink wrapped, ready to go engineer someday, I guess. I only made it to month 5 before I blew out. My old company took me back. They got a much more loyal version of myself. I'm glad to have the experience - one and done. The same recruiter hit me up a few months later. I told him what had happened. He didn't seem phased. I quipped, 'So I am surprised you're even willing to talk to me'. He said I made it to 90 days there and he got paid, he was ready to do it again, and what did I want for round 2?

noman-land 3y ago
I felt literal revulsion at the last sentence of this story.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

That's not what a TL;DR is. TL;DR: setup auto-responders, ask for a huge premium over current salary (the article suggests 50%), make sure salary aligns before doing any screening. Worst case you get data points on what the industry is paying. You can add your interpretation afterwards, but you can simply not TL;DR if you want to respond. ----- that said: >if everybody starts using these "techniques" that recruiters will devise defenses... good. for software engineers especially they shouldn't try to automate the process of finding talent. >Use the time to setup alerts for companies/jobs you really aspire to get to, and fight for those instead. that implies you have aspirations and not just whatever gives you the highest pay. At least, that's the vibe I get a lot from HN comments.

jwestbury 3y ago

Hard disagree. Respond to all of them. You never know when they'll contact you again for a job you're actually interested in, or when you'll be in need. I respond to and connect to most recruiters. It's been hugely beneficial to my career.

hashtag-til 3y ago
I see your point of view. TBH, I'm happy to connect with a recruiter that is a direct employee and recruiting for a company I'd be interested in applying directly (e.g. Apple). The randos I pass. Soon, I guess the way is to ditch LinkedIn as a whole, given it became just your normalised crap off-topic posts network.

nunez 3y ago

They don't get paid if you leave before 3-6 months, so only really shitty "butts in seats" recruiters (that usually offshore lead gen and qualification) will do this. Good recruiters will work with you to find something that fits you.

BizarroLand 3y ago

99% of recruiters that contact me have no idea where I live, no idea of my work history, no idea of my salary requirements and are always trying to pitch me ditch digging salaries in Calcutta. The number of times I receive a call or an email urgently requesting my application for a part time in person job doing desktop support in Texas or Maryland or Colorado or Florida when I live in Washington has become a satire of absurdity in my life now. To add insult to injury is how they're offering $11-$15 an hour to start, which is ridiculous for a job that requires certifications and at least an associates degree to begin with, but I guess that explains why they're not doing any research and just casting a huge net to see if they can catch anyone to fill the position. The cream on the coffee is when they call me and tell me about this wonderful job blah blah blah, great way to get your foot in the door blah blah blah and then proudly say how their salaries are very competitive and they're offering $40 to start. And I say, $40 an hour? And they recoil in horror and fall all over themselves to clarify they mean $40,000 a year And then I tell them I won't consider any job that isn't paying $75 at a minimum. And they say, "$75,000 a year? We might have some in that range." And I say, "No, $75 an hour" And they say, without fail, "NOBODY IS PAYING THAT MUCH!" as if they are personally offended that some peon pissant subhuman piece of garbage like myself is daring to waste their time And I let them rant for a minute and then I say, "Well, I'm already making over $70 an hour, so I would need more money than that to consider a move." And then the conversation gets real quiet for a moment, and then they mumble, "Well, if I hear of anything in your price range I'll keep you in mind..." and they hang up. This isn't a "it happened to me once" thing. This conversation has happened 3 times in the last 2 years, and many times before that. It's beyond a joke, parody isn't a strong enough word for it. It's maddening.