7 ms·

The ideology part is the declaration that "transwomen ARE women", and that anyone who disagrees is a terf. At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying

The ideology part is the declaration that "transwomen ARE women", and that anyone who disagrees is a terf. At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women, and that you don't even need surgery or hormones to qualify. It goes much further than 'societal gender expectations' and accepting or denying that people should be able to dress and act how they want.

atoav 3y ago
You don't seem to know the biology of hormone therapy very well. You might wanna research a little bit better. > At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women, and that you don't even need surgery or hormones to qualify. This is about how you talk to people mostly. Nobody on the left believes that a man who wants to be a women is automatically biologically a women — that would be absurd, which is why the right likes to show it that way. What they believe in is that when a man decides to take the hard, life-changing decision to become a women the bare minimum decent thing is to respect that and call them "she" or "her".
- perilunar 3y ago
  I made no claims about biology or hormones, or my personal position for that matter — I simply stated that there is a trans ideology, and it goes beyond didibus' "Either you think... Or you think..." statement.
  - atoav 3y ago
    You were using the term "trans ideology" with the claim the left sees a persons self-declaration of wanting to transition as someone "being" a women. I said two things: 1. If a man does hormone therapy they are biologically transitioning towards a woman, this is e.g. why they can give breast milk. In biology a sex isn't always as clear cut as many believe and there exists ample scientific research on the topic, so this isn't the topic of our discussion. 2. With the biology out of the way, what remains is the question of the gender — the social, societal and mental role of what it means to "be" a woman. And obviously like with any role people can have different ideas of what it includes and what it excludes. What the left does is simply to say: "Fuck those social constructs, they don't help us, if someone wants to be a woman they are a woman", while the more conservative type might have very specific (bit in the face of history: arbitrary) ideas on what a "true" woman looks like, behaves like, is like. The conservative definition of the gender roles we have a net-negative effect in our society. And that goes for men as well. So many "real" men, that immitate what they think "makes a man" — because of fear that they are not they fail their loved ones and they fail themselves. They confuse acting strong with being strong, while the strong (=harder to do) thing would be to confront your own weaknesses. So if trans-ideology simply means not taking those roles seriously I am on board. If it means something else I am all ears.
    - nebgle 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - didibus 3y ago
    I still don't see what goes beyond what I said. I do find it strange to call it an "ideology", but I guess if you want to say that. It still seems to me it's just debating the idea that people who want to dress, act, and be treated differently than their birth sex should be allowed to do so or not. I guess you can say that's an ideology, because it's an ideal societal reality that is being advocated for, to allow for this behavior and socially accept it. But I don't see what you find goes beyond this? Problem: Someone would prefer to be treated like society treats woman, including being referred too as one. Debate: Should we allow this or not Pro-trans stance: We should allow it. Anti-trans stance: We should not allow it.
- nebgle 3y ago
  [flagged]
didibus 3y ago
> there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women Do you mean that you do not believe that anyone has a brain chemistry that makes them feel like either they have the wrong gendered body or like they're not totally quite woman or man? Or do you just mean that you don't trust everyone who pretends as such, and think there are some that are just opportunist about it?
- hibbers 3y ago
  [flagged]

atoav 3y ago

You don't seem to know the biology of hormone therapy very well. You might wanna research a little bit better. > At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women, and that you don't even need surgery or hormones to qualify. This is about how you talk to people mostly. Nobody on the left believes that a man who wants to be a women is automatically biologically a women — that would be absurd, which is why the right likes to show it that way. What they believe in is that when a man decides to take the hard, life-changing decision to become a women the bare minimum decent thing is to respect that and call them "she" or "her".

perilunar 3y ago
I made no claims about biology or hormones, or my personal position for that matter — I simply stated that there is a trans ideology, and it goes beyond didibus' "Either you think... Or you think..." statement.
- atoav 3y ago
  You were using the term "trans ideology" with the claim the left sees a persons self-declaration of wanting to transition as someone "being" a women. I said two things: 1. If a man does hormone therapy they are biologically transitioning towards a woman, this is e.g. why they can give breast milk. In biology a sex isn't always as clear cut as many believe and there exists ample scientific research on the topic, so this isn't the topic of our discussion. 2. With the biology out of the way, what remains is the question of the gender — the social, societal and mental role of what it means to "be" a woman. And obviously like with any role people can have different ideas of what it includes and what it excludes. What the left does is simply to say: "Fuck those social constructs, they don't help us, if someone wants to be a woman they are a woman", while the more conservative type might have very specific (bit in the face of history: arbitrary) ideas on what a "true" woman looks like, behaves like, is like. The conservative definition of the gender roles we have a net-negative effect in our society. And that goes for men as well. So many "real" men, that immitate what they think "makes a man" — because of fear that they are not they fail their loved ones and they fail themselves. They confuse acting strong with being strong, while the strong (=harder to do) thing would be to confront your own weaknesses. So if trans-ideology simply means not taking those roles seriously I am on board. If it means something else I am all ears.
  - nebgle 3y ago
    [flagged]
- didibus 3y ago
  I still don't see what goes beyond what I said. I do find it strange to call it an "ideology", but I guess if you want to say that. It still seems to me it's just debating the idea that people who want to dress, act, and be treated differently than their birth sex should be allowed to do so or not. I guess you can say that's an ideology, because it's an ideal societal reality that is being advocated for, to allow for this behavior and socially accept it. But I don't see what you find goes beyond this? Problem: Someone would prefer to be treated like society treats woman, including being referred too as one. Debate: Should we allow this or not Pro-trans stance: We should allow it. Anti-trans stance: We should not allow it.
nebgle 3y ago
[flagged]

didibus 3y ago

> there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women Do you mean that you do not believe that anyone has a brain chemistry that makes them feel like either they have the wrong gendered body or like they're not totally quite woman or man? Or do you just mean that you don't trust everyone who pretends as such, and think there are some that are just opportunist about it?

hibbers 3y ago
[flagged]