6 ms·

> buy into this trans ideology I'm very confused by this description? What exactly is "trans ideology"? And how do you "buy into it"? I consider myself a cen

> buy into this trans ideology I'm very confused by this description? What exactly is "trans ideology"? And how do you "buy into it"? I consider myself a centrist on most things. And I don't really understand that statement. Either you think that people who want to dress, act, and be treated differently than their birth sex should be allowed to do so. Or you think that people should be forced to act and be treated as based on societal gender expectations. I don't see what "ideology" there is here?

perilunar 3y ago
The ideology part is the declaration that "transwomen ARE women", and that anyone who disagrees is a terf. At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women, and that you don't even need surgery or hormones to qualify. It goes much further than 'societal gender expectations' and accepting or denying that people should be able to dress and act how they want.
- atoav 3y ago
  You don't seem to know the biology of hormone therapy very well. You might wanna research a little bit better. > At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women, and that you don't even need surgery or hormones to qualify. This is about how you talk to people mostly. Nobody on the left believes that a man who wants to be a women is automatically biologically a women — that would be absurd, which is why the right likes to show it that way. What they believe in is that when a man decides to take the hard, life-changing decision to become a women the bare minimum decent thing is to respect that and call them "she" or "her".
  - perilunar 3y ago
    I made no claims about biology or hormones, or my personal position for that matter — I simply stated that there is a trans ideology, and it goes beyond didibus' "Either you think... Or you think..." statement.
    - atoav 3y ago
      You were using the term "trans ideology" with the claim the left sees a persons self-declaration of wanting to transition as someone "being" a women. I said two things: 1. If a man does hormone therapy they are biologically transitioning towards a woman, this is e.g. why they can give breast milk. In biology a sex isn't always as clear cut as many believe and there exists ample scientific research on the topic, so this isn't the topic of our discussion. 2. With the biology out of the way, what remains is the question of the gender — the social, societal and mental role of what it means to "be" a woman. And obviously like with any role people can have different ideas of what it includes and what it excludes. What the left does is simply to say: "Fuck those social constructs, they don't help us, if someone wants to be a woman they are a woman", while the more conservative type might have very specific (bit in the face of history: arbitrary) ideas on what a "true" woman looks like, behaves like, is like. The conservative definition of the gender roles we have a net-negative effect in our society. And that goes for men as well. So many "real" men, that immitate what they think "makes a man" — because of fear that they are not they fail their loved ones and they fail themselves. They confuse acting strong with being strong, while the strong (=harder to do) thing would be to confront your own weaknesses. So if trans-ideology simply means not taking those roles seriously I am on board. If it means something else I am all ears.
      - nebgle 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - didibus 3y ago
      I still don't see what goes beyond what I said. I do find it strange to call it an "ideology", but I guess if you want to say that. It still seems to me it's just debating the idea that people who want to dress, act, and be treated differently than their birth sex should be allowed to do so or not. I guess you can say that's an ideology, because it's an ideal societal reality that is being advocated for, to allow for this behavior and socially accept it. But I don't see what you find goes beyond this? Problem: Someone would prefer to be treated like society treats woman, including being referred too as one. Debate: Should we allow this or not Pro-trans stance: We should allow it. Anti-trans stance: We should not allow it.
  - nebgle 3y ago
    [flagged]
- didibus 3y ago
  > there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women Do you mean that you do not believe that anyone has a brain chemistry that makes them feel like either they have the wrong gendered body or like they're not totally quite woman or man? Or do you just mean that you don't trust everyone who pretends as such, and think there are some that are just opportunist about it?
  - hibbers 3y ago
    [flagged]
juanani 3y ago
[dead]
nebgle 3y ago
[flagged]
- kahnclusions 3y ago
  This sounds like a urban legend or an isolated incident portrayed to make the issue sound big and scary. Prisons should be evaluating whether the person was genuinely living as a woman (and possibly taking hormone treatments, etc) before putting them into a women’s prison, and not just because they declared “I’m a woman now” after being convicted and sentenced. Nobody making a fuss about trans people causing problems in prisons seems to give a single fuck about all the sexual assaults and rapes that happen between men or between women in prisons. It’s only when trans people come into the picture then all of a sudden prison rape becomes a big issue.
  - nebgle 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - MrOwen 3y ago
      I think you still didn't address gp's statement? You cherry picked a handful of examples but failed to provide data indicting this is truly a systemic issue. Or at least an issue that is specifically worse than non-trans rape/sexual assault that occurs at correctional facilities. So basically absent that sort of data, the gender issue of the assailant is irrelevant - rape and sexual assault are a serious problem at these facilities that in general need a solution to improve the situation. If you put all your effort into stopping rape-by-trans and somehow you are able to make it go away, you still have rape-by-non-trans to deal with which is a much larger issue.
      - nebgle 3y ago
        [flagged]
soligern 3y ago
Then you’re a woman that is dressing and acting like a man. It’s a personal choice and no one should have any problem with it. But claiming you are now a man makes no sense.
- philistine 3y ago
  It seems you're conflating gender and sex. The person' sex hasn't changed, their gender did.
  - tempaccount420 3y ago
    How? Trans"sex"uals are absolutely about sex, not gender.
    - philistine 3y ago
      First, it’s no longer the term of art. Transgender is what you should say. Expressly for the reason you’re bringing up. Second, a grammatical gotcha is far from a proof. Our language is not a perfect representation of reality.
  - soligern 3y ago
    Assigning a term to the way someone dresses and cuts their hair doesn’t change anything beyond the individual level.
- didibus 3y ago
  > But claiming you are now a man makes no sense That's the point. Your conceptualization of gender doesn't actually make sense to the true reality of gender expression. You have this idea that gender "should" be some way. You were told this, and raised to believe that. But if you're observant of the real world, you see that there exists many people for whom this doesn't make sense. You can see there are people that have the traits of one and the sex of another. You can see that there exist many more relevant characteristics than just genitals. The structure, size and connections of the brain, the hormonal balance, the organs, the bone structure, the chromosomes, etc. All these things exists in so many more combinations than two distinct clearly delineated sets. And so, like we did in the past with believing the earth was the center of the universe, or not knowing what caused diseases before we learned about germs, or why thunder would strike. We're forced to re-evaluate our understanding of reality, and update our mental models with one that can fit all we observe and better predict reality. In the past, ideology has actually worked to repress and hide this reality. Forcing people that don't comform to pretend otherwise. And yet here we are, thousands of years into human history, and still there exists many people that don't fit the model. They existed throughout history, there's accounts of it in writing from many prior civilizations. Which takes me back to what I said previously. You can continue to want to repress them. Or you can just accept a model where there is a spectrum of gender, with most people fitting nicely one side or the other, but also many that are somewhere in between. And that means, if they want to act or be treated one way or another, you can be okay with that. Or you can think that we should force them otherwise.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

perilunar 3y ago

The ideology part is the declaration that "transwomen ARE women", and that anyone who disagrees is a terf. At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women, and that you don't even need surgery or hormones to qualify. It goes much further than 'societal gender expectations' and accepting or denying that people should be able to dress and act how they want.

atoav 3y ago
You don't seem to know the biology of hormone therapy very well. You might wanna research a little bit better. > At the extreme, there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women, and that you don't even need surgery or hormones to qualify. This is about how you talk to people mostly. Nobody on the left believes that a man who wants to be a women is automatically biologically a women — that would be absurd, which is why the right likes to show it that way. What they believe in is that when a man decides to take the hard, life-changing decision to become a women the bare minimum decent thing is to respect that and call them "she" or "her".
- perilunar 3y ago
  I made no claims about biology or hormones, or my personal position for that matter — I simply stated that there is a trans ideology, and it goes beyond didibus' "Either you think... Or you think..." statement.
  - atoav 3y ago
    You were using the term "trans ideology" with the claim the left sees a persons self-declaration of wanting to transition as someone "being" a women. I said two things: 1. If a man does hormone therapy they are biologically transitioning towards a woman, this is e.g. why they can give breast milk. In biology a sex isn't always as clear cut as many believe and there exists ample scientific research on the topic, so this isn't the topic of our discussion. 2. With the biology out of the way, what remains is the question of the gender — the social, societal and mental role of what it means to "be" a woman. And obviously like with any role people can have different ideas of what it includes and what it excludes. What the left does is simply to say: "Fuck those social constructs, they don't help us, if someone wants to be a woman they are a woman", while the more conservative type might have very specific (bit in the face of history: arbitrary) ideas on what a "true" woman looks like, behaves like, is like. The conservative definition of the gender roles we have a net-negative effect in our society. And that goes for men as well. So many "real" men, that immitate what they think "makes a man" — because of fear that they are not they fail their loved ones and they fail themselves. They confuse acting strong with being strong, while the strong (=harder to do) thing would be to confront your own weaknesses. So if trans-ideology simply means not taking those roles seriously I am on board. If it means something else I am all ears.
    - nebgle 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - didibus 3y ago
    I still don't see what goes beyond what I said. I do find it strange to call it an "ideology", but I guess if you want to say that. It still seems to me it's just debating the idea that people who want to dress, act, and be treated differently than their birth sex should be allowed to do so or not. I guess you can say that's an ideology, because it's an ideal societal reality that is being advocated for, to allow for this behavior and socially accept it. But I don't see what you find goes beyond this? Problem: Someone would prefer to be treated like society treats woman, including being referred too as one. Debate: Should we allow this or not Pro-trans stance: We should allow it. Anti-trans stance: We should not allow it.
- nebgle 3y ago
  [flagged]
didibus 3y ago
> there is the belief that 'identifying' as a women makes you a women Do you mean that you do not believe that anyone has a brain chemistry that makes them feel like either they have the wrong gendered body or like they're not totally quite woman or man? Or do you just mean that you don't trust everyone who pretends as such, and think there are some that are just opportunist about it?
- hibbers 3y ago
  [flagged]

juanani 3y ago

[dead]

nebgle 3y ago

[flagged]

kahnclusions 3y ago
This sounds like a urban legend or an isolated incident portrayed to make the issue sound big and scary. Prisons should be evaluating whether the person was genuinely living as a woman (and possibly taking hormone treatments, etc) before putting them into a women’s prison, and not just because they declared “I’m a woman now” after being convicted and sentenced. Nobody making a fuss about trans people causing problems in prisons seems to give a single fuck about all the sexual assaults and rapes that happen between men or between women in prisons. It’s only when trans people come into the picture then all of a sudden prison rape becomes a big issue.
- nebgle 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - MrOwen 3y ago
    I think you still didn't address gp's statement? You cherry picked a handful of examples but failed to provide data indicting this is truly a systemic issue. Or at least an issue that is specifically worse than non-trans rape/sexual assault that occurs at correctional facilities. So basically absent that sort of data, the gender issue of the assailant is irrelevant - rape and sexual assault are a serious problem at these facilities that in general need a solution to improve the situation. If you put all your effort into stopping rape-by-trans and somehow you are able to make it go away, you still have rape-by-non-trans to deal with which is a much larger issue.
    - nebgle 3y ago
      [flagged]

soligern 3y ago

Then you’re a woman that is dressing and acting like a man. It’s a personal choice and no one should have any problem with it. But claiming you are now a man makes no sense.

philistine 3y ago
It seems you're conflating gender and sex. The person' sex hasn't changed, their gender did.
- tempaccount420 3y ago
  How? Trans"sex"uals are absolutely about sex, not gender.
  - philistine 3y ago
    First, it’s no longer the term of art. Transgender is what you should say. Expressly for the reason you’re bringing up. Second, a grammatical gotcha is far from a proof. Our language is not a perfect representation of reality.
- soligern 3y ago
  Assigning a term to the way someone dresses and cuts their hair doesn’t change anything beyond the individual level.
didibus 3y ago
> But claiming you are now a man makes no sense That's the point. Your conceptualization of gender doesn't actually make sense to the true reality of gender expression. You have this idea that gender "should" be some way. You were told this, and raised to believe that. But if you're observant of the real world, you see that there exists many people for whom this doesn't make sense. You can see there are people that have the traits of one and the sex of another. You can see that there exist many more relevant characteristics than just genitals. The structure, size and connections of the brain, the hormonal balance, the organs, the bone structure, the chromosomes, etc. All these things exists in so many more combinations than two distinct clearly delineated sets. And so, like we did in the past with believing the earth was the center of the universe, or not knowing what caused diseases before we learned about germs, or why thunder would strike. We're forced to re-evaluate our understanding of reality, and update our mental models with one that can fit all we observe and better predict reality. In the past, ideology has actually worked to repress and hide this reality. Forcing people that don't comform to pretend otherwise. And yet here we are, thousands of years into human history, and still there exists many people that don't fit the model. They existed throughout history, there's accounts of it in writing from many prior civilizations. Which takes me back to what I said previously. You can continue to want to repress them. Or you can just accept a model where there is a spectrum of gender, with most people fitting nicely one side or the other, but also many that are somewhere in between. And that means, if they want to act or be treated one way or another, you can be okay with that. Or you can think that we should force them otherwise.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]