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“Is never okay” is not a rational argument in any philosophical or legal framework. You are projecting theoretically pure ideas into the real world where they d

“Is never okay” is not a rational argument in any philosophical or legal framework. You are projecting theoretically pure ideas into the real world where they don’t exist in any pure form. Ukraine was Soviet Socialist for most of the 20th century, so any positive democratic movement is an improvement. In 2014, the people overturned a highly Russia-aligned and corrupt government (for which Russia invaded Crimea and fomented a rebellion in the Donbas). Zelenskyy was elected on a populist anti-corruption platform (again, further movement towards democracy). The party bans you mention happened within a month after Moscow invaded Ukraine with eyes on the capital. And every single banned party was Socialist-leaning + most likely closer aligned with Russia than Ukraine. Again, not exactly a huge regression when it comes to democracy. The sad fact is that Ukraine has never been highly democratic. The post-2014 trend is towards more individual freedom and less government corruption (as far as I can tell, not speaking the local language). Your standards are a great example of “perfect should not be enemy of the good”, much like the original US Articles of Confederation, which only lasted a few years.

cpursley 3y ago
> In 2014, the people overturned a highly Russia-aligned and corrupt government Adorable that you didn't use the word "coup" - especially considering how much money the US spent aiding it (info is in the public domain). A coup against a democratically elected leader (even a really really shitty one) is by it's very definition, undemocratic. As is canceling elections. Ukraine was never a democracy and the most corrupt country in Europe before this started, now it’s a dictatorship if we apply western standards.
- thephyber 3y ago
  Ukraine is not democratic and never has been. We are talking about a spectrum where one end is fully democratic (values). 1991 to 2004 to 2008 to 2014 to 2019 to 2022 have been moving towards the democratic end of the spectrum (except perhaps 2008 to 2014, but the country remains heavily corrupt (the same reason the EU and NATO were not serious about accepting UA). The 2014 coup was followed by massive popular protests. The voters demanded president Viktor Yanukovych leave office and significant government + constitutional change and more independence from being under Russian influence and oligarch control. Popular protests don’t happen just because foreign money is thrown at the issue. You pretend like the pre-2014 elections were “Democratic” in any sense of fair elections. You should go back and read about the 2004 UA Presidential Election and the findings of the UA Supreme Court, which overturned the election and forced a redo. The UK cancelled elections in 1940 due to WW2. Is the UK a dictatorship? Even the EU has set policy standards for what conditions merit dissolution of specific political parties[1]. And when UA dissolves those parties, the dissolutions were upheld by the court (so the UA was not far off of EU standards for the same action. Again, UA took some pretty extreme anti-democratic measures towards domestic political allies of RU after they were invaded by RU and after those same political parties had been supporting the violent rebellion in the Donbas region since 2014. I don’t think your standards are reasonable. [1] https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-INF(2000)001-e https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?p...

cpursley 3y ago

> In 2014, the people overturned a highly Russia-aligned and corrupt government Adorable that you didn't use the word "coup" - especially considering how much money the US spent aiding it (info is in the public domain). A coup against a democratically elected leader (even a really really shitty one) is by it's very definition, undemocratic. As is canceling elections. Ukraine was never a democracy and the most corrupt country in Europe before this started, now it’s a dictatorship if we apply western standards.

thephyber 3y ago
Ukraine is not democratic and never has been. We are talking about a spectrum where one end is fully democratic (values). 1991 to 2004 to 2008 to 2014 to 2019 to 2022 have been moving towards the democratic end of the spectrum (except perhaps 2008 to 2014, but the country remains heavily corrupt (the same reason the EU and NATO were not serious about accepting UA). The 2014 coup was followed by massive popular protests. The voters demanded president Viktor Yanukovych leave office and significant government + constitutional change and more independence from being under Russian influence and oligarch control. Popular protests don’t happen just because foreign money is thrown at the issue. You pretend like the pre-2014 elections were “Democratic” in any sense of fair elections. You should go back and read about the 2004 UA Presidential Election and the findings of the UA Supreme Court, which overturned the election and forced a redo. The UK cancelled elections in 1940 due to WW2. Is the UK a dictatorship? Even the EU has set policy standards for what conditions merit dissolution of specific political parties[1]. And when UA dissolves those parties, the dissolutions were upheld by the court (so the UA was not far off of EU standards for the same action. Again, UA took some pretty extreme anti-democratic measures towards domestic political allies of RU after they were invaded by RU and after those same political parties had been supporting the violent rebellion in the Donbas region since 2014. I don’t think your standards are reasonable. [1] https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-INF(2000)001-e https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?p...