4 ms·

Calling 15 years “a few” is a tad dramatic.

by tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago

heavyset_go 3y ago
I don't think it'll take 15 years for RISC-V processors to be competitive with ARM.
- epcoa 3y ago
  What’s the point if they’re merely competitive? There has to be some compelling advantage - why would Apple throw out their ARM ISA for RISC-V. Unlike other companies the licensing isn’t really an issue.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Well, Apple already designs their own processors; the math also works out for them to cut out the middleman with ARM if you disregard their Softbank relationship. They don't rely on Cortex designs like Qualcomm and they already have extended the ISA for their own purposes. It appears that Apple could stand to benefit from an ISA they can truly control. Whether it's worth another transition is unclear, but Apple's desire for control over their digital supply chain is obvious. It's not like you can argue that they can't pull off a RISC transition, either.
    - ffhhttt 3y ago
      Hoe much are they even paying ARM? > It's not like you can argue that they can't pull off a RISC transition Apple could also possibly send a spaceship to the moon if they really wanted to. Not sure there are any practical reasons to do that. They’ve been working on ARM chips for almost a decade to get to where they are now. Throwing that away for some ill defined advantages seems not that rational.
      - bitwize 3y ago
        > Hoe much are they even paying ARM? I think Apple has a perpetual license to ARM tech because they put up a bunch of investment money after ARM spun off from Acorn.
        ksec 3y ago
        The perpetual license to ARM ISA has nothing to do with Apple's investment into ARM or Acorn. Anyone with money could buy a perpetual license to its ISA under the condition ARM and buyer agree with.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        A RISC transition and a moon landing are markedly different things, though. They've already migrated MacOS to a RISC architecture, whereas nothing Apple makes is really intended to go into space. Unlike building a rocket ship, we already know Apple can do this. None of us really know the specifics of Apple's deal, though. It's a perpetual license and they are in-bed with the firm that majority-owns ARM. It seems like a good deal, but obviously it's not good enough; Apple doesn't use any ARM-provided core designs and even adds their own ISA extensions when-needed. They themselves are using ARM like it is RISC-V, and they're a big enough stakeholder that they can get away with it. > They’ve been working on ARM chips for almost a decade https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09/03/apple-investigating-risc-v-processor-architecture-job-listing-shows https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09/03/apple-investigati... They've been exploring RISC-V internally for a couple years now, too. I think it is either extremely foolish or ignorant to think that RISC-V won't undermine most ARM-licensed devices. The vast majority of places where ARM is used (even in Apple devices) is small and cheap microcontrollers that mostly cost whatever their license demands. If Apple could switch their internal ICs to RISC-V, they would already be saving a lot of money without transitioning to RISC-V fully.
        ffhhttt 3y ago
        > They've already migrated MacOS to a RISC architecture, Have they? I certainly think you have a point about microcontrollers. I find it very doubtful RISC-v would supplant ARM on the high end anytime soon. The licensing fees are pretty peanuts compared to the cost of designing your own cores and even the big players have been struggling to come up with anything that could compete against ARMs designs (besides Apple of course). Also it’s not at all clearer what incentives would Apple have to switch to RISC-V? Sure they could do it.. what would they gain though?
  - iainmerrick 3y ago
    That’s true, but at the same time, throwing out their ARM ISA wouldn’t necessarily be a huge cost for them; they’ve migrated smoothly a bunch of times in the past, so they’re really good at it. If there were a compelling advantage at some point, they could go for it.
- bitwize 3y ago
  Knowing Apple, their next move is probably going to be inventing an ISA out of whole cloth; either that or acquire RISC-V International, so that they can be sure that future ISA changes and developments support their needs first.
  - astrange 3y ago
    They already invented an ISA, it's called ARMv8. The ISA was designed for Apple Silicon, not the other way round.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  You're right, it'll sadly be a lot longer.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
It felt like less time because most of Apple's devices (nearly everything that wasn't a mac) already ran ARM in the interim.

Calling 15 years “a few” is a tad dramatic.

heavyset_go 3y ago

I don't think it'll take 15 years for RISC-V processors to be competitive with ARM.

epcoa 3y ago
What’s the point if they’re merely competitive? There has to be some compelling advantage - why would Apple throw out their ARM ISA for RISC-V. Unlike other companies the licensing isn’t really an issue.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  Well, Apple already designs their own processors; the math also works out for them to cut out the middleman with ARM if you disregard their Softbank relationship. They don't rely on Cortex designs like Qualcomm and they already have extended the ISA for their own purposes. It appears that Apple could stand to benefit from an ISA they can truly control. Whether it's worth another transition is unclear, but Apple's desire for control over their digital supply chain is obvious. It's not like you can argue that they can't pull off a RISC transition, either.
  - ffhhttt 3y ago
    Hoe much are they even paying ARM? > It's not like you can argue that they can't pull off a RISC transition Apple could also possibly send a spaceship to the moon if they really wanted to. Not sure there are any practical reasons to do that. They’ve been working on ARM chips for almost a decade to get to where they are now. Throwing that away for some ill defined advantages seems not that rational.
    - bitwize 3y ago
      > Hoe much are they even paying ARM? I think Apple has a perpetual license to ARM tech because they put up a bunch of investment money after ARM spun off from Acorn.
      - ksec 3y ago
        The perpetual license to ARM ISA has nothing to do with Apple's investment into ARM or Acorn. Anyone with money could buy a perpetual license to its ISA under the condition ARM and buyer agree with.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      A RISC transition and a moon landing are markedly different things, though. They've already migrated MacOS to a RISC architecture, whereas nothing Apple makes is really intended to go into space. Unlike building a rocket ship, we already know Apple can do this. None of us really know the specifics of Apple's deal, though. It's a perpetual license and they are in-bed with the firm that majority-owns ARM. It seems like a good deal, but obviously it's not good enough; Apple doesn't use any ARM-provided core designs and even adds their own ISA extensions when-needed. They themselves are using ARM like it is RISC-V, and they're a big enough stakeholder that they can get away with it. > They’ve been working on ARM chips for almost a decade https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09/03/apple-investigating-risc-v-processor-architecture-job-listing-shows https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/09/03/apple-investigati... They've been exploring RISC-V internally for a couple years now, too. I think it is either extremely foolish or ignorant to think that RISC-V won't undermine most ARM-licensed devices. The vast majority of places where ARM is used (even in Apple devices) is small and cheap microcontrollers that mostly cost whatever their license demands. If Apple could switch their internal ICs to RISC-V, they would already be saving a lot of money without transitioning to RISC-V fully.
      - ffhhttt 3y ago
        > They've already migrated MacOS to a RISC architecture, Have they? I certainly think you have a point about microcontrollers. I find it very doubtful RISC-v would supplant ARM on the high end anytime soon. The licensing fees are pretty peanuts compared to the cost of designing your own cores and even the big players have been struggling to come up with anything that could compete against ARMs designs (besides Apple of course). Also it’s not at all clearer what incentives would Apple have to switch to RISC-V? Sure they could do it.. what would they gain though?
- iainmerrick 3y ago
  That’s true, but at the same time, throwing out their ARM ISA wouldn’t necessarily be a huge cost for them; they’ve migrated smoothly a bunch of times in the past, so they’re really good at it. If there were a compelling advantage at some point, they could go for it.
bitwize 3y ago
Knowing Apple, their next move is probably going to be inventing an ISA out of whole cloth; either that or acquire RISC-V International, so that they can be sure that future ISA changes and developments support their needs first.
- astrange 3y ago
  They already invented an ISA, it's called ARMv8. The ISA was designed for Apple Silicon, not the other way round.
dontlaugh 3y ago
You're right, it'll sadly be a lot longer.

extraduder_ire 3y ago

It felt like less time because most of Apple's devices (nearly everything that wasn't a mac) already ran ARM in the interim.