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> They are the overwhelming majority of users, whether you like it or not. Yes, and? They're not here. This is not where they hang out. The point isn't why som

> They are the overwhelming majority of users, whether you like it or not. Yes, and? They're not here. This is not where they hang out. The point isn't why someone who doesn't even know the difference must not run bloatware, but rather why people who do know better frown on bloatware. > This is the free market at work. Anything but. The bit that's missing is transparency. As in, both the buyer and the seller know everything there is to know about the product in question and other options available. > Turns out, developers are more than happy to make that deal. Yes, developers. Not users, who aren't actually keen on upgrading machines to achieve the same stuff, but have been mislead to think this is how it has to be -- because from personal computer and user empowerment, we got to corporate empowerment. And the same way (too many) corporations outsource costs to society and their employees, we now consider doing the same as very professional. You called it "low-cost development", as if the externalized costs simply don't exist. It's just a few seconds here, a few dollars there, multiplied over thousands or millions or actually-who-even-cares instances. > Electron apps are cross-platform out of the box So are apps that achieve the same or more with way, way less. When you talk about the box the users take them out of, that is. When it comes to developers who can "just use what they already know", sure, for them Electron works "out of the box", while other things "require assembly". Okay, so what? Isn't that what coding is? Imagine architects building shittier bridges that use more resources, because that's easier and quicker. That's perfectly fine for individual architects, but as a trend it's just regression.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
100% this. > The point isn't why someone who doesn't even know the difference must not run bloatware, but rather why people who do know better frown on bloatware. Also, computing industry seems to be unique in that tools for professionals and toys for general audience are being developed to the lowest common denominator of the latter. This is what's changed in the past 1.5 decade. Can you imagine surgeons or civil engineers doing their jobs using tools designed to take advantage of Joe Always Half-Drunk and Jane the Long Retired Grandma and the likes? (This is partially where the idea that "customer doesn't want a drill, they want a hole in a wall" leads people astray.) > Imagine architects building shittier bridges that use more resources, because that's easier and quicker. That's perfectly fine for individual architects, but as a trend it's just regression. That is unfortunately happening everywhere, as the "cost function" driving optimization isn't global/general efficiency, but business efficiency. Initially these two are correlated, so any new industry tends to first develop in ways that cut down waste. But then it transitions to reducing costs to company, by generating more waste, just for someone else. Externalities seem to be a general problem for our civilization today.
- phailhaus 3y ago
  I can't believe you're comparing developing desktop apps to surgery and civil engineering. The stakes here are zero. This is what open source software is all about: making apps accessible to more devs, and more users.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > The stakes here are zero. For most, yes. But for software where stakes are non-zero, for software where errors could kill people or cause billions of dollars of damage, the tooling is... exactly the same. For example, the infamous "Industry 4.0" and "Industrial IoT" buzz-phrases are, in big part, about your usual garden quality open source software - mostly webshit - orchestrating the actual control systems in factories and manufacturing plants. I shudder to think what "Industry 5.0" will look like.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  As to your last paragraph, what really gets me is this: However much you might save by cutting X corners, or how much you might make by selling someone something they don't need, etc. -- there are hundreds, thousands of companies you're dealing with that do the same to you, to people you love, your co-workers, employees and customers, probably making your life much worse than your own corner cutting can recoup. It might not even make business sense in the bigger picture, because instead of a small slice of something that is at least pie you get container ships full of saw dust or something.
phailhaus 3y ago
You are making weird moral judgements about desktop app frameworks. There is nothing wrong with Electron, there is no "regression". There is a reason why you're losing this battle, and it's because for many devs developing small apps, Electron is easier. That's it. What I really can't understand is how people get so heated about tech stack choices like this. We're not talking about civil engineering, we're talking about an ffmpeg wrapper. Electron is just a means to an end. If your alternatives were better at what devs and users cared about, they'd be more popular. Clearly that isn't the case. You should be excited that frameworks like Electron allow more devs to make powerful tools accessible to the public so quickly. This is what open source is all about!
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  > there is no "regression" Not according to your standards, and that's fine, for your standards. > There is a reason why you're losing this battle, and it's because for many devs developing small apps, Electron is easier. That's it. What "battle"? Decent software still is being made, I'm still using it. But if someone is presented to the world, saying why I would never dream of using it is fair, no? Why should I care what's easier for some "rando dev"? I'm the person who would use their resources to run it, while not using things that are faster and don't introduce even half a second of "waiting" (who does that?) when starting them, doing the thing, quitting them; even when I already have dozens of similarly well made programs running. So while someone else might say "oh this is great, because I don't know about Avidemux (or would rather wait 5 seconds just staring at nothing than spend 2 seconds hunting for the menu option)", I don't. Either you accept both types of reaction, or none. > We're not talking about civil engineering, we're talking about an ffmpeg wrapper. Exactly. Why again is that over 100MB big? Even making it in Love2D or something would be a million times more sane. And again, I'm not talking about civil engineering either, the alternatives I presented were "an Avidemux tutorial" which would be like 5 sentences and 3 screenshots, or Avidemux minus all the other stuff. > If your alternatives were better at what devs and users cared about My opinion of something isn't about what other people care about, in their state of what I'd describe as ignorance. And you aren't even saying what you care about, you are talking about "the average user", which is a complete waste of time. Bring even just one actual non-technical person in and let each of us make our points, let us show them the process of installing and using each respective software, and you'd have the start of an argument. It's also not that everybody and their dog drives a SUV because that is sane. I don't care about what leads people to doing these things. I see the outcome, so whatever the root cause is, I see it as something to be improved, not accepted. If everything that anyone did was perfect by default and shouldn't be criticized, because that'd be a "weird moral judgement", why talk about anything? > You should be excited that frameworks like Electron allow more devs to make powerful tools accessible to the public so quickly. Why? Why can't you be excited that I can don't find them powerful, because they do 1% and take longer to do it, then sit there constantly taking up more space? After saying I am making "weird moral judgements", now you tell me what I should be excited for?

TeMPOraL 3y ago

100% this. > The point isn't why someone who doesn't even know the difference must not run bloatware, but rather why people who do know better frown on bloatware. Also, computing industry seems to be unique in that tools for professionals and toys for general audience are being developed to the lowest common denominator of the latter. This is what's changed in the past 1.5 decade. Can you imagine surgeons or civil engineers doing their jobs using tools designed to take advantage of Joe Always Half-Drunk and Jane the Long Retired Grandma and the likes? (This is partially where the idea that "customer doesn't want a drill, they want a hole in a wall" leads people astray.) > Imagine architects building shittier bridges that use more resources, because that's easier and quicker. That's perfectly fine for individual architects, but as a trend it's just regression. That is unfortunately happening everywhere, as the "cost function" driving optimization isn't global/general efficiency, but business efficiency. Initially these two are correlated, so any new industry tends to first develop in ways that cut down waste. But then it transitions to reducing costs to company, by generating more waste, just for someone else. Externalities seem to be a general problem for our civilization today.

phailhaus 3y ago
I can't believe you're comparing developing desktop apps to surgery and civil engineering. The stakes here are zero. This is what open source software is all about: making apps accessible to more devs, and more users.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > The stakes here are zero. For most, yes. But for software where stakes are non-zero, for software where errors could kill people or cause billions of dollars of damage, the tooling is... exactly the same. For example, the infamous "Industry 4.0" and "Industrial IoT" buzz-phrases are, in big part, about your usual garden quality open source software - mostly webshit - orchestrating the actual control systems in factories and manufacturing plants. I shudder to think what "Industry 5.0" will look like.
johnnyworker 3y ago
As to your last paragraph, what really gets me is this: However much you might save by cutting X corners, or how much you might make by selling someone something they don't need, etc. -- there are hundreds, thousands of companies you're dealing with that do the same to you, to people you love, your co-workers, employees and customers, probably making your life much worse than your own corner cutting can recoup. It might not even make business sense in the bigger picture, because instead of a small slice of something that is at least pie you get container ships full of saw dust or something.

phailhaus 3y ago

You are making weird moral judgements about desktop app frameworks. There is nothing wrong with Electron, there is no "regression". There is a reason why you're losing this battle, and it's because for many devs developing small apps, Electron is easier. That's it. What I really can't understand is how people get so heated about tech stack choices like this. We're not talking about civil engineering, we're talking about an ffmpeg wrapper. Electron is just a means to an end. If your alternatives were better at what devs and users cared about, they'd be more popular. Clearly that isn't the case. You should be excited that frameworks like Electron allow more devs to make powerful tools accessible to the public so quickly. This is what open source is all about!

johnnyworker 3y ago
> there is no "regression" Not according to your standards, and that's fine, for your standards. > There is a reason why you're losing this battle, and it's because for many devs developing small apps, Electron is easier. That's it. What "battle"? Decent software still is being made, I'm still using it. But if someone is presented to the world, saying why I would never dream of using it is fair, no? Why should I care what's easier for some "rando dev"? I'm the person who would use their resources to run it, while not using things that are faster and don't introduce even half a second of "waiting" (who does that?) when starting them, doing the thing, quitting them; even when I already have dozens of similarly well made programs running. So while someone else might say "oh this is great, because I don't know about Avidemux (or would rather wait 5 seconds just staring at nothing than spend 2 seconds hunting for the menu option)", I don't. Either you accept both types of reaction, or none. > We're not talking about civil engineering, we're talking about an ffmpeg wrapper. Exactly. Why again is that over 100MB big? Even making it in Love2D or something would be a million times more sane. And again, I'm not talking about civil engineering either, the alternatives I presented were "an Avidemux tutorial" which would be like 5 sentences and 3 screenshots, or Avidemux minus all the other stuff. > If your alternatives were better at what devs and users cared about My opinion of something isn't about what other people care about, in their state of what I'd describe as ignorance. And you aren't even saying what you care about, you are talking about "the average user", which is a complete waste of time. Bring even just one actual non-technical person in and let each of us make our points, let us show them the process of installing and using each respective software, and you'd have the start of an argument. It's also not that everybody and their dog drives a SUV because that is sane. I don't care about what leads people to doing these things. I see the outcome, so whatever the root cause is, I see it as something to be improved, not accepted. If everything that anyone did was perfect by default and shouldn't be criticized, because that'd be a "weird moral judgement", why talk about anything? > You should be excited that frameworks like Electron allow more devs to make powerful tools accessible to the public so quickly. Why? Why can't you be excited that I can don't find them powerful, because they do 1% and take longer to do it, then sit there constantly taking up more space? After saying I am making "weird moral judgements", now you tell me what I should be excited for?