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This feels like the modern equivalent of Malthusian theory. Many people have had similar thoughts throughout much of history, but human prosperity has always pr

This feels like the modern equivalent of Malthusian theory. Many people have had similar thoughts throughout much of history, but human prosperity has always prevailed. Knowledge is infinite, and as long as there is new knowledge to seek, things are never going to stagnate or be over. Atoms have never been the limiting factor, it's been knowledge on what to do with them. Knowledge makes the existence of resources infinite: https://nav.al/infinite-resources https://nav.al/infinite-resources Pessimism seems like an intellectually serious position: https://nav.al/pessimism https://nav.al/pessimism

mitthrowaway2 3y ago
It certainly can't be infinite. It might be a really big limit. It might be asymptotically approached, and never reached. But even very big combinatorial numbers are not to be confused with infinity. If there is no limit to prosperity, it follows that not only do you not run out of atoms, you also don't run out of ways to rearrange those atoms that you prefer to earlier arrangements. In that case there is no configuration of the universe that is ultimately the most preferable, which must mean that you have exploitable cyclic preferences.
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abecedarius 3y ago
The post makes a case for a radically expanded future as a possibility we can't seriously ignore -- that a "business as usual" future doesn't make sense. Your objection is that you don't expect stagnation. Neither does the writer!
johnnyworker 3y ago
Nobody, nobody, is sitting there complaining about a world in which knowledge is growing. > [..] this machine, which itself is constructed in such a way that it can devour the globe simply by following its own inherent law. By "Victory or Death," the Leviathan can indeed overcome all political limitations that go with the existence of other peoples and can envelop the whole earth in its tyranny. But when the last war has come and every man has been provided for, no ultimate peace is established on earth: the power-accumulating machine, without which continual expansion would not have been achieved, needs more material to devour in its never-ending process. If the last victorious Commonwealth cannot proceed to "annex the planets," it can only proceed to destroy itself in order to begin anew the never-ending process of power generation. -- Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism" "Knowledge is infinite" means nothing. Things not stagnating or being over also means nothing, that description would fit any nightmarish scenario, too. We are destroying the habitats of species at such a rate, we barely have begun exploring the ocean and we will never even know what is already lost for good. Knowledge. We know that inequality is rising at increasing pace, that people starve, that for the first time, future generations have less to look forward to than previous ones... what more do we need to know to do something with that all knowledge? Or is the knowledge what to do with the knowledge some kind of cherry on top reserved for last? While some say "knowledge" and what a fascinating adventure it all is, I just hear "numbness" and "alienation". Collecting gimmicky factoids about the world at best, factoids about man-made concepts at worst, while not seeing the woods for all the trees. You say pessimism, I say toxic positivity, now what? I found a fridge magnet in form of the Hebrew letter Shin recently, and because I had time to pass I read some stuff about it, including this: > When the shin is representative of the intellectual dimension, the three lines stand for the three intellectual faculties of the Sefiros: the right line being Chochmah, the flash of an idea; the left line being Binah, understanding; and the centerline Daas, application of knowledge. -- https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137093/jewish/Shin-Sin.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137093/jewish... Knowledge without understanding is worse than no knowledge in my opinion, and without application, even understanding is worse than no understanding. Or as MLK put it: > Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

mitthrowaway2 3y ago

It certainly can't be infinite. It might be a really big limit. It might be asymptotically approached, and never reached. But even very big combinatorial numbers are not to be confused with infinity. If there is no limit to prosperity, it follows that not only do you not run out of atoms, you also don't run out of ways to rearrange those atoms that you prefer to earlier arrangements. In that case there is no configuration of the universe that is ultimately the most preferable, which must mean that you have exploitable cyclic preferences.

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abecedarius 3y ago

The post makes a case for a radically expanded future as a possibility we can't seriously ignore -- that a "business as usual" future doesn't make sense. Your objection is that you don't expect stagnation. Neither does the writer!

johnnyworker 3y ago

Nobody, nobody, is sitting there complaining about a world in which knowledge is growing. > [..] this machine, which itself is constructed in such a way that it can devour the globe simply by following its own inherent law. By "Victory or Death," the Leviathan can indeed overcome all political limitations that go with the existence of other peoples and can envelop the whole earth in its tyranny. But when the last war has come and every man has been provided for, no ultimate peace is established on earth: the power-accumulating machine, without which continual expansion would not have been achieved, needs more material to devour in its never-ending process. If the last victorious Commonwealth cannot proceed to "annex the planets," it can only proceed to destroy itself in order to begin anew the never-ending process of power generation. -- Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism" "Knowledge is infinite" means nothing. Things not stagnating or being over also means nothing, that description would fit any nightmarish scenario, too. We are destroying the habitats of species at such a rate, we barely have begun exploring the ocean and we will never even know what is already lost for good. Knowledge. We know that inequality is rising at increasing pace, that people starve, that for the first time, future generations have less to look forward to than previous ones... what more do we need to know to do something with that all knowledge? Or is the knowledge what to do with the knowledge some kind of cherry on top reserved for last? While some say "knowledge" and what a fascinating adventure it all is, I just hear "numbness" and "alienation". Collecting gimmicky factoids about the world at best, factoids about man-made concepts at worst, while not seeing the woods for all the trees. You say pessimism, I say toxic positivity, now what? I found a fridge magnet in form of the Hebrew letter Shin recently, and because I had time to pass I read some stuff about it, including this: > When the shin is representative of the intellectual dimension, the three lines stand for the three intellectual faculties of the Sefiros: the right line being Chochmah, the flash of an idea; the left line being Binah, understanding; and the centerline Daas, application of knowledge. -- https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137093/jewish/Shin-Sin.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137093/jewish... Knowledge without understanding is worse than no knowledge in my opinion, and without application, even understanding is worse than no understanding. Or as MLK put it: > Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.