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They are the overwhelming majority of users, whether you like it or not. This is the free market at work. There isn't even a valid concern here to complain abo

They are the overwhelming majority of users, whether you like it or not. This is the free market at work. There isn't even a valid concern here to complain about. Electron apps are cross-platform out of the box. The tradeoff for open access and low-cost development is more RAM. Turns out, developers are more than happy to make that deal.

pdntspa 3y ago
Why does everything have to boil down to making money? This is exactly what I mean. The free market is meaningless when minds are corrupted by people who profit from them
- phailhaus 3y ago
  Because developers need to eat, this should not be hard to understand. It is cheaper and faster to build an Electron app and have it immediately work cross platform, than to build several native apps just to please some random internet purist.
  - pdntspa 3y ago
    And if that eating is already covered? To say nothing of QT, Avalonia, Uno, GTK, and others. Many of those manage to figure out cross-platform with native controls. But no, we have to use electron because she can throw cheap oversaturated webdevs at the problem and call it a day.
    - phailhaus 3y ago
      Because it's easier. That's it. You can argue about "equivalent alternatives" until you're blue in the face, but you're wrong. It's just easier for many devs to use Electron than whatever you just spouted, and that's why it's more popular. You are acting like Principal Skinner going "No, it is the children who are wrong." What I can't understand is, why do you care so much?
      - pdntspa 3y ago
        Why do you care about why I care so much? I have my reasons. I have outlined them. They are much better than anyone else's reasons, by my standard, and I am going to stick to them. Why are you arguing such conformist bullshit?
  - johnnyworker 3y ago
    It's even easier to make a 3 screenshot tutorial to explain how to do it in Avidemux. Slightly more work would be to fork Avidemux and rip out everything but the lossless cutting. But then you'd at least have a tool worth calling it that. It's not a one-way street, either. Even just putting a link in front of me is asking for my attention. I then read the description, which doesn't mention that it's giant and totally pointless if you use Avidemux, and have to click to the releases page to realize yes, it's another one of these that seem to quickly become the norm, and that I know won't be maintained in 5 years. But hey, I don't have anything better to do with my time, surely!
johnnyworker 3y ago
> They are the overwhelming majority of users, whether you like it or not. Yes, and? They're not here. This is not where they hang out. The point isn't why someone who doesn't even know the difference must not run bloatware, but rather why people who do know better frown on bloatware. > This is the free market at work. Anything but. The bit that's missing is transparency. As in, both the buyer and the seller know everything there is to know about the product in question and other options available. > Turns out, developers are more than happy to make that deal. Yes, developers. Not users, who aren't actually keen on upgrading machines to achieve the same stuff, but have been mislead to think this is how it has to be -- because from personal computer and user empowerment, we got to corporate empowerment. And the same way (too many) corporations outsource costs to society and their employees, we now consider doing the same as very professional. You called it "low-cost development", as if the externalized costs simply don't exist. It's just a few seconds here, a few dollars there, multiplied over thousands or millions or actually-who-even-cares instances. > Electron apps are cross-platform out of the box So are apps that achieve the same or more with way, way less. When you talk about the box the users take them out of, that is. When it comes to developers who can "just use what they already know", sure, for them Electron works "out of the box", while other things "require assembly". Okay, so what? Isn't that what coding is? Imagine architects building shittier bridges that use more resources, because that's easier and quicker. That's perfectly fine for individual architects, but as a trend it's just regression.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  100% this. > The point isn't why someone who doesn't even know the difference must not run bloatware, but rather why people who do know better frown on bloatware. Also, computing industry seems to be unique in that tools for professionals and toys for general audience are being developed to the lowest common denominator of the latter. This is what's changed in the past 1.5 decade. Can you imagine surgeons or civil engineers doing their jobs using tools designed to take advantage of Joe Always Half-Drunk and Jane the Long Retired Grandma and the likes? (This is partially where the idea that "customer doesn't want a drill, they want a hole in a wall" leads people astray.) > Imagine architects building shittier bridges that use more resources, because that's easier and quicker. That's perfectly fine for individual architects, but as a trend it's just regression. That is unfortunately happening everywhere, as the "cost function" driving optimization isn't global/general efficiency, but business efficiency. Initially these two are correlated, so any new industry tends to first develop in ways that cut down waste. But then it transitions to reducing costs to company, by generating more waste, just for someone else. Externalities seem to be a general problem for our civilization today.

pdntspa 3y ago

Why does everything have to boil down to making money? This is exactly what I mean. The free market is meaningless when minds are corrupted by people who profit from them

phailhaus 3y ago
Because developers need to eat, this should not be hard to understand. It is cheaper and faster to build an Electron app and have it immediately work cross platform, than to build several native apps just to please some random internet purist.
- pdntspa 3y ago
  And if that eating is already covered? To say nothing of QT, Avalonia, Uno, GTK, and others. Many of those manage to figure out cross-platform with native controls. But no, we have to use electron because she can throw cheap oversaturated webdevs at the problem and call it a day.
  - phailhaus 3y ago
    Because it's easier. That's it. You can argue about "equivalent alternatives" until you're blue in the face, but you're wrong. It's just easier for many devs to use Electron than whatever you just spouted, and that's why it's more popular. You are acting like Principal Skinner going "No, it is the children who are wrong." What I can't understand is, why do you care so much?
    - pdntspa 3y ago
      Why do you care about why I care so much? I have my reasons. I have outlined them. They are much better than anyone else's reasons, by my standard, and I am going to stick to them. Why are you arguing such conformist bullshit?
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  It's even easier to make a 3 screenshot tutorial to explain how to do it in Avidemux. Slightly more work would be to fork Avidemux and rip out everything but the lossless cutting. But then you'd at least have a tool worth calling it that. It's not a one-way street, either. Even just putting a link in front of me is asking for my attention. I then read the description, which doesn't mention that it's giant and totally pointless if you use Avidemux, and have to click to the releases page to realize yes, it's another one of these that seem to quickly become the norm, and that I know won't be maintained in 5 years. But hey, I don't have anything better to do with my time, surely!

johnnyworker 3y ago

> They are the overwhelming majority of users, whether you like it or not. Yes, and? They're not here. This is not where they hang out. The point isn't why someone who doesn't even know the difference must not run bloatware, but rather why people who do know better frown on bloatware. > This is the free market at work. Anything but. The bit that's missing is transparency. As in, both the buyer and the seller know everything there is to know about the product in question and other options available. > Turns out, developers are more than happy to make that deal. Yes, developers. Not users, who aren't actually keen on upgrading machines to achieve the same stuff, but have been mislead to think this is how it has to be -- because from personal computer and user empowerment, we got to corporate empowerment. And the same way (too many) corporations outsource costs to society and their employees, we now consider doing the same as very professional. You called it "low-cost development", as if the externalized costs simply don't exist. It's just a few seconds here, a few dollars there, multiplied over thousands or millions or actually-who-even-cares instances. > Electron apps are cross-platform out of the box So are apps that achieve the same or more with way, way less. When you talk about the box the users take them out of, that is. When it comes to developers who can "just use what they already know", sure, for them Electron works "out of the box", while other things "require assembly". Okay, so what? Isn't that what coding is? Imagine architects building shittier bridges that use more resources, because that's easier and quicker. That's perfectly fine for individual architects, but as a trend it's just regression.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
100% this. > The point isn't why someone who doesn't even know the difference must not run bloatware, but rather why people who do know better frown on bloatware. Also, computing industry seems to be unique in that tools for professionals and toys for general audience are being developed to the lowest common denominator of the latter. This is what's changed in the past 1.5 decade. Can you imagine surgeons or civil engineers doing their jobs using tools designed to take advantage of Joe Always Half-Drunk and Jane the Long Retired Grandma and the likes? (This is partially where the idea that "customer doesn't want a drill, they want a hole in a wall" leads people astray.) > Imagine architects building shittier bridges that use more resources, because that's easier and quicker. That's perfectly fine for individual architects, but as a trend it's just regression. That is unfortunately happening everywhere, as the "cost function" driving optimization isn't global/general efficiency, but business efficiency. Initially these two are correlated, so any new industry tends to first develop in ways that cut down waste. But then it transitions to reducing costs to company, by generating more waste, just for someone else. Externalities seem to be a general problem for our civilization today.