4 ms·

Also, why not add fish ladders? Basins with small waterfalls the salmon can overcome?

throw9away6 3y ago
It’s not the optimal outcome for the tribe. Also I’d be interested in who benefits from having all this newly uncovered cleared land next to a river
- genter 3y ago
  If you're implying that the tribes are going to financially benefit from new land, no. First of all, there's a ton of land already available, this is a very rural area. Secondly, they're doing habitat restoration.
  - throw9away6 3y ago
    So they are getting paid for that work? There is the more salmon to catch angle but the are probably other benefits too. I would venture they have the most to gain from this
    - genter 3y ago
      I dunno if they have the most to gain, but they certainly have a lot to gain. There's also sports fishermen that will benefit, as well as wildlife in general (eg osprey), and the associated tourism.
    - gariti 3y ago
      I think one important benefit to consider is that these projects can be seen as an attempt to correct historical wrongs done against native people in these areas. Imagine if you were a Yurok person and your people lived for thousands of years, as a unique culture, and where substituting off of salmon was integral to that culture, only to have foreign invaders remove you from your lands, put you on reservations, and effectively destroy the lifeblood of your people by damming the rivers. Now imagine how after several generations this would damage your people as a group economically. Given that history, it seems strange to question that the Yurok people might have financial "benefits" from this kind of project.
seadan83 3y ago
Take note that in part of the article they mention they are moving salmon to colder waters. Why are they doing that? The issue there is the river is running shallow due to the dams, the shallow depth allows the river water to be warmed beyond a point habitable for salmon runs. You can see pictures of what these elevated river temperatures do here: https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2021/08/02/Scorching-water-temperatures-burn-Salmon-fish-in-Columbia-River-Video https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2021/08/02/Scorchin... Why is water depth so important? It's pretty well known how hot concrete can get when sitting in exposed California sun. If you have a water depth of a foot - that water is going to get really toasty. There's quite a few resources regarding water temperatures and the effect it's having on salmon runs: - https://www.kiro7.com/news/salmon-threatened-hot-temperatures-and-low-water-f/28693075/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/salmon-threatened-hot-temperature... - https://www.ucsrb.org/low-water-high-temperatures-drastic-effects-on-fish/ https://www.ucsrb.org/low-water-high-temperatures-drastic-ef...
- FreshStart 3y ago
  So? White coat of paint and a sun sail?
gumby 3y ago
Fish ladders aren't magic. Find a photo of a salmon at the end of its migration: exhausted and thin after all that work. A fish ladder is better than nothing at all, but a terrible "solution". And in the end the real issue is ecological restoration, of which salmon are only a part. Fortunately the case is easy for these dams because the dams don't pay for themselves. In general dams are pretty terrible, but like so many things can be worth the tradeoff. But the "worth" involves human life (e.g. wiping out the hetch hetchy valley so that people on the SF peninsula can have water). But when there's no clear benefit at all, the downsides (buildup of heavy metals behind the dam, damage to fish and other wildlife, earthquake risks....) are decisive.

It’s not the optimal outcome for the tribe. Also I’d be interested in who benefits from having all this newly uncovered cleared land next to a river

genter 3y ago
If you're implying that the tribes are going to financially benefit from new land, no. First of all, there's a ton of land already available, this is a very rural area. Secondly, they're doing habitat restoration.
- throw9away6 3y ago
  So they are getting paid for that work? There is the more salmon to catch angle but the are probably other benefits too. I would venture they have the most to gain from this
  - genter 3y ago
    I dunno if they have the most to gain, but they certainly have a lot to gain. There's also sports fishermen that will benefit, as well as wildlife in general (eg osprey), and the associated tourism.
  - gariti 3y ago
    I think one important benefit to consider is that these projects can be seen as an attempt to correct historical wrongs done against native people in these areas. Imagine if you were a Yurok person and your people lived for thousands of years, as a unique culture, and where substituting off of salmon was integral to that culture, only to have foreign invaders remove you from your lands, put you on reservations, and effectively destroy the lifeblood of your people by damming the rivers. Now imagine how after several generations this would damage your people as a group economically. Given that history, it seems strange to question that the Yurok people might have financial "benefits" from this kind of project.

seadan83 3y ago

Take note that in part of the article they mention they are moving salmon to colder waters. Why are they doing that? The issue there is the river is running shallow due to the dams, the shallow depth allows the river water to be warmed beyond a point habitable for salmon runs. You can see pictures of what these elevated river temperatures do here: https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2021/08/02/Scorching-water-temperatures-burn-Salmon-fish-in-Columbia-River-Video https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2021/08/02/Scorchin... Why is water depth so important? It's pretty well known how hot concrete can get when sitting in exposed California sun. If you have a water depth of a foot - that water is going to get really toasty. There's quite a few resources regarding water temperatures and the effect it's having on salmon runs: - https://www.kiro7.com/news/salmon-threatened-hot-temperatures-and-low-water-f/28693075/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/salmon-threatened-hot-temperature... - https://www.ucsrb.org/low-water-high-temperatures-drastic-effects-on-fish/ https://www.ucsrb.org/low-water-high-temperatures-drastic-ef...

FreshStart 3y ago
So? White coat of paint and a sun sail?

gumby 3y ago

Fish ladders aren't magic. Find a photo of a salmon at the end of its migration: exhausted and thin after all that work. A fish ladder is better than nothing at all, but a terrible "solution". And in the end the real issue is ecological restoration, of which salmon are only a part. Fortunately the case is easy for these dams because the dams don't pay for themselves. In general dams are pretty terrible, but like so many things can be worth the tradeoff. But the "worth" involves human life (e.g. wiping out the hetch hetchy valley so that people on the SF peninsula can have water). But when there's no clear benefit at all, the downsides (buildup of heavy metals behind the dam, damage to fish and other wildlife, earthquake risks....) are decisive.