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> most important real-world applications for personal computers. Applications are one thing (e.g. the way they took away Quark's iron-handed grasp on DTP). Bu

> most important real-world applications for personal computers. Applications are one thing (e.g. the way they took away Quark's iron-handed grasp on DTP). But, then there are the standards. For example, PDF. The modern world would barely operate without PDF.

codethief 3y ago
> The modern world would barely operate without PDF. Maybe. But maybe people would have simply adopted other standards, like djvu.
- j1elo 3y ago
  It wouldn't be the same. It would be much more confusing. - Thank you for the meeting, oh and please send me the djvu of your reports - Oh I'd swear we already had this conversation and I had already sent them?
  - cogman10 3y ago
    I'm guessing we'd shorten the name to just vu. djvu is a mouthful.
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > Maybe. But maybe people would have simply adopted other standards, like djvu. Some people still insist on using non-PDF, for example the Swiss tax office insists on some weird proprietary format[1], QDF made by some obscure company called Snapform. All their forms are in QDF format. It introduces completely un-necessary friction into the process. Everyone knows they should have just used PDF. Instead of forcing people to install some reader software they will never use for any other purpose. [1] https://www.estv.admin.ch/estv/en/home/anticipatory-tax/claim-refund/domicil-abroad.html https://www.estv.admin.ch/estv/en/home/anticipatory-tax/clai...
postmodest 3y ago
We'd all be using TeX, right?
- ruuda 3y ago
  How would we exchange, print, and view rendered documents? DVI perhaps, but it's not completely self-contained.
layer8 3y ago
HTML might have become a document interchange format, and we’d be less stuck to fixed page-based layouts as with PDF now.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  Apples and oranges, my friend.
  - layer8 3y ago
    That’s exactly my point though. We might be using oranges instead of apples now if history had been different.
    - weebull 3y ago
      We use both for different things. They don't solve the same problem.
      - hasmanean 3y ago
        In a different universe we would have been happy with the limitations of html and published everything with a minimal of markup.
      - layer8 3y ago
        For most documents that are published as PDF nowadays, there is only little practical use for them to have a predetermined pagination and layout, and a free-flowing layout would be perfectly fine. If PDF didn’t exist, those documents might instead be typically published in a format more akin to EPUB or MOBI.
fidotron 3y ago
This grasp of history isn't quite right. Adobe PostScript, invented by Warnock, was _the_ standard. It was the means by which an application could describe to the computer in the printer the layout of the page. (And later the compute resources in the printer got separated first into Raster Image Processors (RIPs) and later just part of printer drivers in the computers). The development of PDF was driven by the need to resolve incompatibilities in PostScript implementations that had become the nightmare of graphics pros in the early 90s. It was not uncommon to have to use random software to convert one PS file to another PS file which could be understood by the RIP owned by a given print shop. Quark was built on the infrastructure enabled by PostScript in the first place. Edit to add: possible confusion - RIPs were primarily used to generate super high res output on film used for lithographic plates, but they were enabled by the standardization around PostScript for driving laser printers.
- wbl 3y ago
  Unfortunately today my printer cannot print PDFs with ligatures correctly.
phpisthebest 3y ago
>>The modern world would barely operate without PDF. PDF was great when most documents needed to be printed, so sending say an invoice to someone you could ensure their printed copy was the same as your printed copy. PDF in "modern" world, where printing is less important and really should be sent to the dust bin if history. PDF has become a complex web of security problems, screen compatibility problems, and various other things including the complex web of converters to take PDF's and make them back into something editable / usable. We need a replacement for PDF, and let PDF go away along with the printer
- em3rgent0rdr 3y ago
  I get what you are saying. But in a world where most websites looks different on every different browser and browser size and with constantly-changing content, it can be refreshing to have a PDF that whose context is fixed and you know is going to be laid out the same anywhere.
  - jonny_eh 3y ago
    It certainly has its niches, but most people are viewing documents on their phones these days, and PDFs and phones don't work great together.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >PDF in "modern" world, where printing is less important and really should be sent to the dust bin if history. If you do any kind of business at all, especially the accounting side of things, printing is still a hard requirement and PDF makes all that practical.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    >>especially the accounting side of things, printing is still a hard requirement That is provably false, lots of businesses have gone paperless, and all (at least for the US) government agencies, courts, etc all fully accept erecords, many preferring it.
- 3y ago

codethief 3y ago

> The modern world would barely operate without PDF. Maybe. But maybe people would have simply adopted other standards, like djvu.

j1elo 3y ago
It wouldn't be the same. It would be much more confusing. - Thank you for the meeting, oh and please send me the djvu of your reports - Oh I'd swear we already had this conversation and I had already sent them?
- cogman10 3y ago
  I'm guessing we'd shorten the name to just vu. djvu is a mouthful.
traceroute66 3y ago
> Maybe. But maybe people would have simply adopted other standards, like djvu. Some people still insist on using non-PDF, for example the Swiss tax office insists on some weird proprietary format[1], QDF made by some obscure company called Snapform. All their forms are in QDF format. It introduces completely un-necessary friction into the process. Everyone knows they should have just used PDF. Instead of forcing people to install some reader software they will never use for any other purpose. [1] https://www.estv.admin.ch/estv/en/home/anticipatory-tax/claim-refund/domicil-abroad.html https://www.estv.admin.ch/estv/en/home/anticipatory-tax/clai...

postmodest 3y ago

We'd all be using TeX, right?

ruuda 3y ago
How would we exchange, print, and view rendered documents? DVI perhaps, but it's not completely self-contained.

layer8 3y ago

HTML might have become a document interchange format, and we’d be less stuck to fixed page-based layouts as with PDF now.

CharlesW 3y ago
Apples and oranges, my friend.
- layer8 3y ago
  That’s exactly my point though. We might be using oranges instead of apples now if history had been different.
  - weebull 3y ago
    We use both for different things. They don't solve the same problem.
    - hasmanean 3y ago
      In a different universe we would have been happy with the limitations of html and published everything with a minimal of markup.
    - layer8 3y ago
      For most documents that are published as PDF nowadays, there is only little practical use for them to have a predetermined pagination and layout, and a free-flowing layout would be perfectly fine. If PDF didn’t exist, those documents might instead be typically published in a format more akin to EPUB or MOBI.

fidotron 3y ago

This grasp of history isn't quite right. Adobe PostScript, invented by Warnock, was _the_ standard. It was the means by which an application could describe to the computer in the printer the layout of the page. (And later the compute resources in the printer got separated first into Raster Image Processors (RIPs) and later just part of printer drivers in the computers). The development of PDF was driven by the need to resolve incompatibilities in PostScript implementations that had become the nightmare of graphics pros in the early 90s. It was not uncommon to have to use random software to convert one PS file to another PS file which could be understood by the RIP owned by a given print shop. Quark was built on the infrastructure enabled by PostScript in the first place. Edit to add: possible confusion - RIPs were primarily used to generate super high res output on film used for lithographic plates, but they were enabled by the standardization around PostScript for driving laser printers.

wbl 3y ago
Unfortunately today my printer cannot print PDFs with ligatures correctly.

phpisthebest 3y ago

>>The modern world would barely operate without PDF. PDF was great when most documents needed to be printed, so sending say an invoice to someone you could ensure their printed copy was the same as your printed copy. PDF in "modern" world, where printing is less important and really should be sent to the dust bin if history. PDF has become a complex web of security problems, screen compatibility problems, and various other things including the complex web of converters to take PDF's and make them back into something editable / usable. We need a replacement for PDF, and let PDF go away along with the printer

em3rgent0rdr 3y ago
I get what you are saying. But in a world where most websites looks different on every different browser and browser size and with constantly-changing content, it can be refreshing to have a PDF that whose context is fixed and you know is going to be laid out the same anywhere.
- jonny_eh 3y ago
  It certainly has its niches, but most people are viewing documents on their phones these days, and PDFs and phones don't work great together.
Dalewyn 3y ago
>PDF in "modern" world, where printing is less important and really should be sent to the dust bin if history. If you do any kind of business at all, especially the accounting side of things, printing is still a hard requirement and PDF makes all that practical.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  >>especially the accounting side of things, printing is still a hard requirement That is provably false, lots of businesses have gone paperless, and all (at least for the US) government agencies, courts, etc all fully accept erecords, many preferring it.
3y ago