5 ms·

Megaupload Seizure Order “Null and Void” Says High Court

171 points by llambda 15y ago

Todd 15y ago
This is great news. Seizure laws are terrible. The ability of a government to destroy a business without due process should not be permitted (especially a foreign government). It's unfortunate that the ruling is based on a technicality.
- fl3tch 15y ago
  I get what you're saying, but imagine that someone stole your TV, and the police found the guy, but they didn't get your TV back because the courts hadn't convicted the perpetrator yet. They should at least hold the assets in escrow until a resolution is reached, otherwise people could just spend / destroy the assets. Many courts will require a perpetrator to pay restitution in cases where a victim is financially harmed, but in this case there's nobody to pay back, just millions of dollars to blow before an inevitable conviction.
mikeryan 15y ago
Kim Dotcom's personal asset seizure null and void. Not the seizure of Megaupload assets. This really has very little bearing on the Megaupload case as a whole.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Unless it may reflect an overall careless (or worse, abusive) attitude by the various prosecution teams. This is a tough case, involving many jurisdictions and different civil, criminal and process law and, worse of all, driven by economic pressure by companies that are being questioned on many levels for using law enforcement as thugs, as well as other shady business practices. If they want to win this case, they'd better do all their homework flawlessly, dot all i's and cross all t's. If they don't, it will set a precedent that will frame future cases like this. And there will be many more of them.
  - chappi42 15y ago
    An error has been made and is now beeing admitted. A good sign for a working jurisdiction imo. While companies may be questioned I much more question the ethics of this kim distributing copyrighted material without compensating the authors and then buying ferraris instead. Not a role model I'd like to prevail.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      Even very nasty people have the right to due process, fair trial and opportunity to mount a defense. In the nastiness scale, Kim barely registers.
    - dstorrs 15y ago
      Why is this being downvoted? It's not the popular view in these parts but it's a legitimate one and did not strike me as trolling.
      - rbanffy 15y ago
        I believe people disagree with him and downvoting has replaced discussion in many cases. You may downvote a comment that's plain wrong, but you shouldn't do it if someone else already countered the argument.
    - xorbyte 15y ago
      Unless you happen to know, factually, that he is guilty (and perhaps therefore a witness in the trial?) this is exactly the kind of thing that shouldn't happen before a verdict has been handed down. Kim's personality has little to do with how the law should be applied.
- nextparadigms 15y ago
  "This really has very little bearing on the Megaupload case as a whole." Not exactly true. It would allow Dotcom to have more funds for a proper defense. This sort of stuff shouldn't even happen before you actually get charged as guilty. This is why I never really liked the "OPEN Act" alternative to SOPA either. Sites shouldn't get their funds seized and cut off before they even get a chance to defend themselves.
user2459 15y ago
"The blunder, which occurred because the police applied for the wrong type of court order..." Blunder my ass, sounds like abuse of power that, against the police hopes, ended up being checked.
- JeremyBanks 15y ago
  I'm skeptical that they could have deliberately done something wrong just hoping it wouldn't get noticed. This is a very high-profile case; they would be expecting a lot scrutiny.
  - reitzensteinm 15y ago
    Plus the guy can afford the very best of legal counsel. Any holes in the case are sure to get found and exploited.
    - DanBC 15y ago
      All his money has been seized. He might not get it back. Some countries separate out the mis-handling of a case form the actual case. "Fruit of the poison tree"[1] doesn't hold in the UK, for example. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree)
      - joering2 15y ago
        Google couldnt find anything to prove this to me, but if its true then how the country can properly function (UK) if cops can do whethever the heck they want to as long as they get the "evidence" as a result. no idea.
        DanBC 15y ago
        Cops can't do whatever they like to get evidence. But evidence is not thrown out because the police used the wrong warrant or whatnot. Maybe the officer doing wrong would face disciplinary procedures (resulting in loss of pension and job) or maybe they'd face criminal trial.
driverdan 15y ago
Original story: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10792862 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5... Let's hope it's struck down but I'm going to guess they'll hold up the proper order under pressure from the US.
powertower 15y ago
The first order is void. The validity of the second order (that corrected the original issue) is still up for debate (if I read this correctly).
afterburner 15y ago
"Rather than applying for an interim restraining order, the Police Commissioner applied for a foreign restraining order instead, one which did not give Dotcom a chance to mount a defense." This makes a case for the mistake being deliberate, since it may have given the police the element of surprise or let them move quicker on the seizures.
eli 15y ago
There is already a thread on this on the front page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3718922 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3718922
yaix 15y ago
So there is a police guy who doesn't know how to do his job meeting a judge who doesn't know how to do his job, and all on a case that gets world wide, front page press coverage. Talk about bad luck.
- gwillen 15y ago
  Bad luck... or evidence of officials being systematically bad at their jobs.
tathagatadg 15y ago
This is a totally off topic but are those legal terms or that 2012 is code year?

171 points by llambda 15y ago

Todd 15y ago

This is great news. Seizure laws are terrible. The ability of a government to destroy a business without due process should not be permitted (especially a foreign government). It's unfortunate that the ruling is based on a technicality.

fl3tch 15y ago
I get what you're saying, but imagine that someone stole your TV, and the police found the guy, but they didn't get your TV back because the courts hadn't convicted the perpetrator yet. They should at least hold the assets in escrow until a resolution is reached, otherwise people could just spend / destroy the assets. Many courts will require a perpetrator to pay restitution in cases where a victim is financially harmed, but in this case there's nobody to pay back, just millions of dollars to blow before an inevitable conviction.

mikeryan 15y ago

Kim Dotcom's personal asset seizure null and void. Not the seizure of Megaupload assets. This really has very little bearing on the Megaupload case as a whole.

rbanffy 15y ago
Unless it may reflect an overall careless (or worse, abusive) attitude by the various prosecution teams. This is a tough case, involving many jurisdictions and different civil, criminal and process law and, worse of all, driven by economic pressure by companies that are being questioned on many levels for using law enforcement as thugs, as well as other shady business practices. If they want to win this case, they'd better do all their homework flawlessly, dot all i's and cross all t's. If they don't, it will set a precedent that will frame future cases like this. And there will be many more of them.
- chappi42 15y ago
  An error has been made and is now beeing admitted. A good sign for a working jurisdiction imo. While companies may be questioned I much more question the ethics of this kim distributing copyrighted material without compensating the authors and then buying ferraris instead. Not a role model I'd like to prevail.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    Even very nasty people have the right to due process, fair trial and opportunity to mount a defense. In the nastiness scale, Kim barely registers.
  - dstorrs 15y ago
    Why is this being downvoted? It's not the popular view in these parts but it's a legitimate one and did not strike me as trolling.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      I believe people disagree with him and downvoting has replaced discussion in many cases. You may downvote a comment that's plain wrong, but you shouldn't do it if someone else already countered the argument.
  - xorbyte 15y ago
    Unless you happen to know, factually, that he is guilty (and perhaps therefore a witness in the trial?) this is exactly the kind of thing that shouldn't happen before a verdict has been handed down. Kim's personality has little to do with how the law should be applied.
nextparadigms 15y ago
"This really has very little bearing on the Megaupload case as a whole." Not exactly true. It would allow Dotcom to have more funds for a proper defense. This sort of stuff shouldn't even happen before you actually get charged as guilty. This is why I never really liked the "OPEN Act" alternative to SOPA either. Sites shouldn't get their funds seized and cut off before they even get a chance to defend themselves.

user2459 15y ago

"The blunder, which occurred because the police applied for the wrong type of court order..." Blunder my ass, sounds like abuse of power that, against the police hopes, ended up being checked.

JeremyBanks 15y ago
I'm skeptical that they could have deliberately done something wrong just hoping it wouldn't get noticed. This is a very high-profile case; they would be expecting a lot scrutiny.
- reitzensteinm 15y ago
  Plus the guy can afford the very best of legal counsel. Any holes in the case are sure to get found and exploited.
  - DanBC 15y ago
    All his money has been seized. He might not get it back. Some countries separate out the mis-handling of a case form the actual case. "Fruit of the poison tree"[1] doesn't hold in the UK, for example. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree)
    - joering2 15y ago
      Google couldnt find anything to prove this to me, but if its true then how the country can properly function (UK) if cops can do whethever the heck they want to as long as they get the "evidence" as a result. no idea.
      - DanBC 15y ago
        Cops can't do whatever they like to get evidence. But evidence is not thrown out because the police used the wrong warrant or whatnot. Maybe the officer doing wrong would face disciplinary procedures (resulting in loss of pension and job) or maybe they'd face criminal trial.

driverdan 15y ago

Original story: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10792862 http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5... Let's hope it's struck down but I'm going to guess they'll hold up the proper order under pressure from the US.

powertower 15y ago

The first order is void. The validity of the second order (that corrected the original issue) is still up for debate (if I read this correctly).

afterburner 15y ago

"Rather than applying for an interim restraining order, the Police Commissioner applied for a foreign restraining order instead, one which did not give Dotcom a chance to mount a defense." This makes a case for the mistake being deliberate, since it may have given the police the element of surprise or let them move quicker on the seizures.

eli 15y ago

There is already a thread on this on the front page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3718922 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3718922

yaix 15y ago

So there is a police guy who doesn't know how to do his job meeting a judge who doesn't know how to do his job, and all on a case that gets world wide, front page press coverage. Talk about bad luck.

gwillen 15y ago
Bad luck... or evidence of officials being systematically bad at their jobs.

tathagatadg 15y ago

This is a totally off topic but are those legal terms or that 2012 is code year?