4 ms·

Serious question because I haven’t had time to dig into it and I have gotten some great answers to biology questions here in the past. There is a theory going

Serious question because I haven’t had time to dig into it and I have gotten some great answers to biology questions here in the past. There is a theory going around the internet that the adjuvant component in vaccines which enhances the learned immune response to the viral matter in the vaccine may sometimes (unintentionally) also enhance the learned immune response to other materials in the body around vaccination time, which results in an “allergy” to those other material(s). Logically speaking this doesn’t sound crazy. Has it been studied and disproven? I’ve seen a few “debunkings” but they all seem to misunderstand the theory and dismiss it out of hand.

jgilias 3y ago
Apparently there are no known mechanisms by which vaccination in general might trigger autoimmune disorders, and statistically speaking, this is also not happening: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8402446/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20no%20mechanisms%20have%20been,the%20development%20of%20autoimmune%20diseases https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8402446/#:~:tex.... Except in very rare cases for two particular disorders for two particular vaccines respectively.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  Thanks for the link. Unfortunately though I do not believe it is relevant to my question. Allergies are an immune system disorder, but they are not an auto immune system disorder (unless the human body has started producing pollen without my knowledge). The article does not mention allergies as far as I can tell (probably for this reason).
  - soudiere 3y ago
    Allergies and auto-immune disorders are "expressions" of the same underlying process. Dysfunction in regulatory t cells, part of the adaptive immune system that "trains" the adaptive immune system on what to "attack". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell
    - pfannkuchen 3y ago
      Sure, in the same way that busses and porcupines are expressions of the same underlying process. There are also some key differences, or else we would expect a similar prevalence of autoimmune disease as allergies, no?
      - soudiere 3y ago
        No. Allergies and Auto-immunity are both pathologies of the adaptive immune system "incorrectly" targeting things. Regulatory t cells, "tregs", modulate this. https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(16)30499-7/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(16)30499-7/ful...
        pfannkuchen 3y ago
        My point is that while there may be some broad commonality (with physics being a hyperbolic commonality in the example I gave), this does not mean that there are no differences and that we can always infer information about one from information about the other (though in some cases we can).
        soudiere 3y ago
        This idea is not my own, it's something discussed in the clinical literature. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276104/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276104/ There is literature documenting a higher incidence of allergies in patients with autoimmune disorders. https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/54/5/1900476 https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/54/5/1900476 BACH2 is one of the gene's being investigated for it's role in allergies & auto-immune disorders, and tregs, which is why I keep bringing them up on this thread. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3710737/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3710737/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8934237/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8934237/
        pfannkuchen 3y ago
  - jgilias 3y ago
    Ah sorry, from your quote I understood that you’re talking about actual autoimmune disorders: > also enhance the learned immune response to other materials in the body around vaccination time, which results in an “allergy” to those other material(s). I mean, those are literally “allergies” to materials in your body.
hhjinks 3y ago
If that were true, you would think it would be true for any immune response, even ones from actual infections.
- sethammons 3y ago
  > the adjuvant component in vaccines which enhances the learned immune response ^^ is not present in regular immune responses.
  - hhjinks 3y ago
    That makes sense. I thought they were referring to the enhanced immune response itself.
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    Right, IIUC the adjuvant being present alongside the e.g. inactivated virus causes the immune system to react more strongly because the adjuvant is a harmful substance (though in small enough quantity that it is harmless overall, of course). The obvious question is - how does the adjuvant specifically target the inactivated virus while avoiding having the same effect on anything else in the body? AFAIK the adjuvant substance itself is not chemically complex in a way that it would have the ability to target at all. Can someone explain how this works?

jgilias 3y ago

Apparently there are no known mechanisms by which vaccination in general might trigger autoimmune disorders, and statistically speaking, this is also not happening: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8402446/#:~:text=Currently%2C%20no%20mechanisms%20have%20been,the%20development%20of%20autoimmune%20diseases https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8402446/#:~:tex.... Except in very rare cases for two particular disorders for two particular vaccines respectively.

pfannkuchen 3y ago
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately though I do not believe it is relevant to my question. Allergies are an immune system disorder, but they are not an auto immune system disorder (unless the human body has started producing pollen without my knowledge). The article does not mention allergies as far as I can tell (probably for this reason).
- soudiere 3y ago
  Allergies and auto-immune disorders are "expressions" of the same underlying process. Dysfunction in regulatory t cells, part of the adaptive immune system that "trains" the adaptive immune system on what to "attack". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    Sure, in the same way that busses and porcupines are expressions of the same underlying process. There are also some key differences, or else we would expect a similar prevalence of autoimmune disease as allergies, no?
    - soudiere 3y ago
      No. Allergies and Auto-immunity are both pathologies of the adaptive immune system "incorrectly" targeting things. Regulatory t cells, "tregs", modulate this. https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(16)30499-7/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(16)30499-7/ful...
      - pfannkuchen 3y ago
        My point is that while there may be some broad commonality (with physics being a hyperbolic commonality in the example I gave), this does not mean that there are no differences and that we can always infer information about one from information about the other (though in some cases we can).
        soudiere 3y ago
        This idea is not my own, it's something discussed in the clinical literature. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276104/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2276104/ There is literature documenting a higher incidence of allergies in patients with autoimmune disorders. https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/54/5/1900476 https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/54/5/1900476 BACH2 is one of the gene's being investigated for it's role in allergies & auto-immune disorders, and tregs, which is why I keep bringing them up on this thread. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3710737/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3710737/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8934237/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8934237/
        pfannkuchen 3y ago
- jgilias 3y ago
  Ah sorry, from your quote I understood that you’re talking about actual autoimmune disorders: > also enhance the learned immune response to other materials in the body around vaccination time, which results in an “allergy” to those other material(s). I mean, those are literally “allergies” to materials in your body.

hhjinks 3y ago

If that were true, you would think it would be true for any immune response, even ones from actual infections.

sethammons 3y ago
> the adjuvant component in vaccines which enhances the learned immune response ^^ is not present in regular immune responses.
- hhjinks 3y ago
  That makes sense. I thought they were referring to the enhanced immune response itself.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  Right, IIUC the adjuvant being present alongside the e.g. inactivated virus causes the immune system to react more strongly because the adjuvant is a harmful substance (though in small enough quantity that it is harmless overall, of course). The obvious question is - how does the adjuvant specifically target the inactivated virus while avoiding having the same effect on anything else in the body? AFAIK the adjuvant substance itself is not chemically complex in a way that it would have the ability to target at all. Can someone explain how this works?