4 ms·

Well what are the two major gripes?

aikinai 3y ago
One has to be the ghost army wiping out all impact and meaning from the mortals’ battle and sacrifice in the Return of the King. I’m in the camp that the quality and faithfulness in Peter Jackson’s movies were an insanely improbable miracle—lightning in a bottle that we should be thankful happened once and you could never hope to capture again. But I’m still flabbergasted at the decision to make the ghost army omnipotent. They were so thoughtful with everything else, especially the changes they made—you can see this clearly in the behind-the-scenes discussion. So what in the world happened here?
- eredengrin 3y ago
  I actually don't consider that a major gripe. It's certainly a very weird decision and I'd prefer the original version, but it doesn't ultimately affect all that much imo, it mostly just means the humans did a bit less orc killing in the movies than they had to do in the books. But yeah, I agree with you, I'm happy it turned out as it did for the most part, some of my favorite movies for sure.
eredengrin 3y ago
The treatment of Sam (and the Sam/Frodo friendship) in Return of the King movie, and the treatment of Faramir as a character. I kind of get what they were going for, it just went way too far overboard imo and probably shouldn't have even been attempted. I'm assuming a bit of knowledge in the unpacking of these below for brevity but hopefully it is not too unclear for those who may have only watched the movies. In the books, Faramir was pretty much the one redeemable part of the house of stewards. Yes, the ring may be tempting, but I think that was already sufficiently shown throughout earlier moments in the movies and there was no need to throw Faramir under the bus. He was already a relatively minor character in the books, why do him dirty like that? Everyone, both the characters in the book and the readers outside the book, looked up to him. One of his men broke a rule (punishable by death) to save him in the books and from the context you can imagine most of his reports would have done the same, but if all you knew of him was what you saw in the movies, it gives a very different impression. He came around in the end but at the very least he should have done the right thing sooner than he did in the movies. As far as the Sam (and Frodo) thing goes, admittedly it's been a year or two since the last time I read the trilogy and it's easy to confuse the books/movie in my memory, but I don't remember seeing any signs of contention between them the way it was shown in the movie, and certainly if there was, it was not even close to the same degree. Among other things, I think the movie was trying to show the darker side of the ring's effects, but again, it's already been shown multiple times throughout the movies and they just went overboard with it. Frodo pretty much had the highest trust for Sam (even in the movies this is basically true outside this incident), and would Sam really give up and abandon Frodo that easily because of a few crumbs? Tangentially, I don't remember Sam being particularly cruel to gollum in the books, and that's really the root of this breach of trust in the movies. That entire aspect of Sam shouldn't have been there to begin with, and if it wasn't, the staircase scene would also make no sense to show that way. The reason I find these two particularly inexcusable is that I simply don't see how they added much to the movies in terms of story or character development. There's an argument for it but it's just weak imo, Tolkien had it figured out just fine thank you very much. I also don't see how it would have helped in terms of budget, reducing film length, etc. I can excuse other omissions or slightly weird things if there are budget/time constraints, you can't reasonably ask for the impossible, I just don't see it in those two cases.
- zabzonk 3y ago
  > In the books, Faramir was pretty much the one redeemable part of the house of stewards Boromir redeems himself - Gandalf and Aragorn say so.
  - antonyt 3y ago
    Faramir never needed to.
    - zabzonk 3y ago
      i have never found that believable - if the ring is represented as capable of corrupting anyone, why not faramir? why not send faramir to mordor with it, rather than frodo?
      - eredengrin 3y ago
        I mean there's degrees of temptation. I don't think that simply being in the ring's presence was generally portrayed to be an insurmountable temptation. Some situations were specifically mentioned as causing the ring's power over a person to increase (eg length of time someone used the ring would put them more under its temptation) so I don't see why it's so hard to believe that someone could send off the ring bearer. In any case if that's an issue for you, how do you get around other more fundamental issues, such as how eg Aragorn manages to escape the temptation?
  - eredengrin 3y ago
    Fair enough, I exaggerated a bit there, I was mainly getting at the fact that in the book Faramir's compassionate/gentler/selfless nature was kind of a direct contrast with the power-seeking nature of his older brother and father. To have him try and take the ring by force seems to remove the entire purpose of his character. He's practically just another Boromir but with a chip on his shoulder.
pjbster 3y ago
I have two different major gripes. First, the power of the ring is not put into a proper context and, second, the film's exposition ruined the role of Gandalf and undermined the otherworldliness of Galadriel. Let's put the ring into context. Imagine you were walking along and you came across an ordinary looking smartphone. Amazingly it works and you can make calls on it. Anywhere in the world. For free! That's not bad. But it turns out this phone has a dangerous superpower. For, you see, Stalin developed missile guidance before the Americans and leaked the details. But there's a back door and this phone you hold in your hand is the key to it all. With the right knowledge, this phone could launch any missile from any country at any time. The phone has a primitive AI which attempts to phone home every now and then but no-one has answered it for years. And here's the kicker: Stalin is still alive! Barely. Now just a disembodied brain in a vat hidden somewhere deep in Russia. And he wants his device back now that there's a massive arsenal for him to command. Every agency in the world wants to get their hands on this thing. But you've got to somehow get it into the Kremlin so it can be plugged in to some ancient terminal and deactivated. But you’re not alone. Oh yes, you’ll have some help from a few random individuals who represent various interests, have a few fighting moves and are pretty good at keeping you hidden but without having any authority to make stuff happen for you on your journey. So that's the position the Fellowship find themselves in. Does the film manage to convey any of this? No. Moving on, the way the information is surrendered to the reader in the books is much more gradual than the film. In the books, Gandalf is the reader's and the hobbits' touchstone. When he's away the reader has no clue what's happening and it's not until the hobbits get to Rivendell -- after many close shaves -- that the full details are finally revealed. Not so in the film: Galadriel narrates the whole thing before the opening credits! This ruins the film twice over: Gandalf becomes redundant, reduced to opening the door to Moria and taking on the balrog. Thanks to the magic of cinema, the director teleports us everywhere so that we can witness Gandalf battling Saruman. Gandalf battling the necromancer. Gandalf battling the balrog. Instead of us learning all this from Gandalf himself after he reappears suddenly later on. And Galadriel, the mightiest elf in middle earth, has had her grand entrance already: right at the start, as a voice over. For me, the hobbit who undergoes the biggest Hero's Journey is Pippin. He starts out as a carefree young hobbit and comes back to lead the Shire in the uprising against Saruman. Again, the film chose to ignore this pretty decent character arc in favour of a bunch of CGI effects. Visually, the films are great. It's a shame the screenplay is utter drivel.

One has to be the ghost army wiping out all impact and meaning from the mortals’ battle and sacrifice in the Return of the King. I’m in the camp that the quality and faithfulness in Peter Jackson’s movies were an insanely improbable miracle—lightning in a bottle that we should be thankful happened once and you could never hope to capture again. But I’m still flabbergasted at the decision to make the ghost army omnipotent. They were so thoughtful with everything else, especially the changes they made—you can see this clearly in the behind-the-scenes discussion. So what in the world happened here?

eredengrin 3y ago
I actually don't consider that a major gripe. It's certainly a very weird decision and I'd prefer the original version, but it doesn't ultimately affect all that much imo, it mostly just means the humans did a bit less orc killing in the movies than they had to do in the books. But yeah, I agree with you, I'm happy it turned out as it did for the most part, some of my favorite movies for sure.

eredengrin 3y ago

The treatment of Sam (and the Sam/Frodo friendship) in Return of the King movie, and the treatment of Faramir as a character. I kind of get what they were going for, it just went way too far overboard imo and probably shouldn't have even been attempted. I'm assuming a bit of knowledge in the unpacking of these below for brevity but hopefully it is not too unclear for those who may have only watched the movies. In the books, Faramir was pretty much the one redeemable part of the house of stewards. Yes, the ring may be tempting, but I think that was already sufficiently shown throughout earlier moments in the movies and there was no need to throw Faramir under the bus. He was already a relatively minor character in the books, why do him dirty like that? Everyone, both the characters in the book and the readers outside the book, looked up to him. One of his men broke a rule (punishable by death) to save him in the books and from the context you can imagine most of his reports would have done the same, but if all you knew of him was what you saw in the movies, it gives a very different impression. He came around in the end but at the very least he should have done the right thing sooner than he did in the movies. As far as the Sam (and Frodo) thing goes, admittedly it's been a year or two since the last time I read the trilogy and it's easy to confuse the books/movie in my memory, but I don't remember seeing any signs of contention between them the way it was shown in the movie, and certainly if there was, it was not even close to the same degree. Among other things, I think the movie was trying to show the darker side of the ring's effects, but again, it's already been shown multiple times throughout the movies and they just went overboard with it. Frodo pretty much had the highest trust for Sam (even in the movies this is basically true outside this incident), and would Sam really give up and abandon Frodo that easily because of a few crumbs? Tangentially, I don't remember Sam being particularly cruel to gollum in the books, and that's really the root of this breach of trust in the movies. That entire aspect of Sam shouldn't have been there to begin with, and if it wasn't, the staircase scene would also make no sense to show that way. The reason I find these two particularly inexcusable is that I simply don't see how they added much to the movies in terms of story or character development. There's an argument for it but it's just weak imo, Tolkien had it figured out just fine thank you very much. I also don't see how it would have helped in terms of budget, reducing film length, etc. I can excuse other omissions or slightly weird things if there are budget/time constraints, you can't reasonably ask for the impossible, I just don't see it in those two cases.

zabzonk 3y ago
> In the books, Faramir was pretty much the one redeemable part of the house of stewards Boromir redeems himself - Gandalf and Aragorn say so.
- antonyt 3y ago
  Faramir never needed to.
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    i have never found that believable - if the ring is represented as capable of corrupting anyone, why not faramir? why not send faramir to mordor with it, rather than frodo?
    - eredengrin 3y ago
      I mean there's degrees of temptation. I don't think that simply being in the ring's presence was generally portrayed to be an insurmountable temptation. Some situations were specifically mentioned as causing the ring's power over a person to increase (eg length of time someone used the ring would put them more under its temptation) so I don't see why it's so hard to believe that someone could send off the ring bearer. In any case if that's an issue for you, how do you get around other more fundamental issues, such as how eg Aragorn manages to escape the temptation?
- eredengrin 3y ago
  Fair enough, I exaggerated a bit there, I was mainly getting at the fact that in the book Faramir's compassionate/gentler/selfless nature was kind of a direct contrast with the power-seeking nature of his older brother and father. To have him try and take the ring by force seems to remove the entire purpose of his character. He's practically just another Boromir but with a chip on his shoulder.

pjbster 3y ago

I have two different major gripes. First, the power of the ring is not put into a proper context and, second, the film's exposition ruined the role of Gandalf and undermined the otherworldliness of Galadriel. Let's put the ring into context. Imagine you were walking along and you came across an ordinary looking smartphone. Amazingly it works and you can make calls on it. Anywhere in the world. For free! That's not bad. But it turns out this phone has a dangerous superpower. For, you see, Stalin developed missile guidance before the Americans and leaked the details. But there's a back door and this phone you hold in your hand is the key to it all. With the right knowledge, this phone could launch any missile from any country at any time. The phone has a primitive AI which attempts to phone home every now and then but no-one has answered it for years. And here's the kicker: Stalin is still alive! Barely. Now just a disembodied brain in a vat hidden somewhere deep in Russia. And he wants his device back now that there's a massive arsenal for him to command. Every agency in the world wants to get their hands on this thing. But you've got to somehow get it into the Kremlin so it can be plugged in to some ancient terminal and deactivated. But you’re not alone. Oh yes, you’ll have some help from a few random individuals who represent various interests, have a few fighting moves and are pretty good at keeping you hidden but without having any authority to make stuff happen for you on your journey. So that's the position the Fellowship find themselves in. Does the film manage to convey any of this? No. Moving on, the way the information is surrendered to the reader in the books is much more gradual than the film. In the books, Gandalf is the reader's and the hobbits' touchstone. When he's away the reader has no clue what's happening and it's not until the hobbits get to Rivendell -- after many close shaves -- that the full details are finally revealed. Not so in the film: Galadriel narrates the whole thing before the opening credits! This ruins the film twice over: Gandalf becomes redundant, reduced to opening the door to Moria and taking on the balrog. Thanks to the magic of cinema, the director teleports us everywhere so that we can witness Gandalf battling Saruman. Gandalf battling the necromancer. Gandalf battling the balrog. Instead of us learning all this from Gandalf himself after he reappears suddenly later on. And Galadriel, the mightiest elf in middle earth, has had her grand entrance already: right at the start, as a voice over. For me, the hobbit who undergoes the biggest Hero's Journey is Pippin. He starts out as a carefree young hobbit and comes back to lead the Shire in the uprising against Saruman. Again, the film chose to ignore this pretty decent character arc in favour of a bunch of CGI effects. Visually, the films are great. It's a shame the screenplay is utter drivel.