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An Ukraine that relies on the West for most of its equipment, is under Russian threat, and wants to join the EU/NATO will go around selling the West's equipment

An Ukraine that relies on the West for most of its equipment, is under Russian threat, and wants to join the EU/NATO will go around selling the West's equipment? Makes little sense to me. The West, and more specifically the US, is doing what they said they would do if Russia invaded Ukraine. This was done publicly and apparently privately too. So if this is a proxy war, then it's different from most proxy wars. I don't like war, but when you have someone that wants to expand their borders, sometimes you save a lot of money and lives by ending the problem at the start. If Ukraine goes well, why not do the Baltics next? What about all those ethnic Russians in need of "saving" in Kazakhstan? It might even give China some ideas. So be careful: by not doing anything and saving your precious tax dollars, you might end up spending more in the future. Wars of expansion should be costly and expensive, otherwise everyone would just start wars. And that cold war era... isn't that what's we're already walking to with China? The sanctions, China's claims in the South China sea, etc? Russia in Ukraine are just a side show.

xvector 3y ago
> I don't like war, but when you have someone that wants to expand their borders, sometimes you save a lot of money and lives by ending the problem at the start. If Ukraine goes well, why not do the Baltics next? What about all those ethnic Russians in need of "saving" in Kazakhstan? It might even give China some ideas. So what? How is this our problem?
- sfifs 3y ago
  The US enjoys a massively strong dollar as the world's reserve currency and all the economic discounts that entails primarily because governments around the world believe they will deal with trade disruptions through their unrivaled monopoly on violence. The US would face significant trouble economically if that goes away. Already the lessons taken by all senior politicians and bureaucrats globally from the US and Western Europe turning a blind eye to the original occupation of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is that everyone needs access to an option to rapidly acquire nuclear weapons and to never give them up if you have them. You may have forgotten amidst the news cycles that the first inclination of the West was to offer Zelensky a ride out of Kyiv rather than defend it from Putin's occupation but I assure you no government has forgotten. Why do you think Saudi Arabia is now actively establishing relationships with Iran - because they somehow suddenly realised that they should put aside their 1300 year old Shia - Sunni conflict for humanitarian reasons?
- luuurker 3y ago
  You'll understand how it's your problem when you try to buy the latest SoC and can't because the TSMC fabs were destroyed during the invasion of Taiwan (or something like that).
  - xvector 3y ago
    Okay, so we protect TSMC. What does Ukraine offer us?
    - coryrc 3y ago
      There's nothing more aligned with the US's moral reason for being than to defend a sovereign democratic country from being invaded by a nasty, brutish dictatorship. Something to atone for our sins (invading Iraq the second time and hanging the Kurds out to dry the first time, among others) and build back goodwill among other nations. We spend almost a trillion dollars a year on the military and equipment that's untested in battle, so let's see how well it would really work -- we're learning a lot already but we don't know if our good stuff is really as good as we think.
    - luuurker 3y ago
      Yes, "we" protect TSMC and others like them by providing Taiwan with weapons that makes a war/invasion very expensive and show that anyone that does that will have a though time. But you "have no interest in funding proxy wars with [your] tax dollars" or to "return to a Cold War era", so I guess fuck Taiwan and TSMC. Ukraine? I'm less familiar with Ukraine, but on top of having a friendly country in that part of the world and US influence (which is part of what makes the US the country it is, something you benefit from), didn't the US and the EU use some of their rocket engines or something like that? Not saying we can't survive without them, but to say there's nothing there also doesn't make sense. After reading some of Putin's reasoning to invade Ukraine and what he said about other countries in eastern Ukraine being essentially part of Russia, I have to ask what's cheaper (since you care about your tax dollars)? To send them equipment or to be dragged to a proper war with Russia after they decide to invade NATO countries? What's hit to the global economy and how much will it affect your wallet? Assuming that you care about anyone other than yourself, how much will this affect people around you?
pxmpxm 3y ago
> wants to join the EU/NATO will go around selling the West's equipment Yes, you clearly have never set foot in "eastern" Europe. And I'm saying that as someone that grew up there.
- luuurker 3y ago
  I'm not saying that some guy won't try to make a buck, but the incentive for those in power to allow that to happen is small when they depend on the west to maintain current weapons and get new ones. The F-16's won't fly for long without spare parts. Turkey bought the S400 and got kicked out of the F-35 program (even after paying for the planes)... and they're NATO members.
vpribish 3y ago
xvector is a troll or a tankie. No use talking to them, but thank you for responding so the impressionable don’t think their ideas are normal.
- xvector 3y ago
  "Everyone that disagrees with me is a Russian bot!" Okay. Not getting involved in irrelevant, needless wars isn't exactly a fringe take. Anyways, your comment history shows that you're such an angry/bitter/dismissive person that I don't expect you to engage in any discussion in good faith. So that'll be all from my end. Have a good day.

xvector 3y ago

> I don't like war, but when you have someone that wants to expand their borders, sometimes you save a lot of money and lives by ending the problem at the start. If Ukraine goes well, why not do the Baltics next? What about all those ethnic Russians in need of "saving" in Kazakhstan? It might even give China some ideas. So what? How is this our problem?

sfifs 3y ago
The US enjoys a massively strong dollar as the world's reserve currency and all the economic discounts that entails primarily because governments around the world believe they will deal with trade disruptions through their unrivaled monopoly on violence. The US would face significant trouble economically if that goes away. Already the lessons taken by all senior politicians and bureaucrats globally from the US and Western Europe turning a blind eye to the original occupation of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is that everyone needs access to an option to rapidly acquire nuclear weapons and to never give them up if you have them. You may have forgotten amidst the news cycles that the first inclination of the West was to offer Zelensky a ride out of Kyiv rather than defend it from Putin's occupation but I assure you no government has forgotten. Why do you think Saudi Arabia is now actively establishing relationships with Iran - because they somehow suddenly realised that they should put aside their 1300 year old Shia - Sunni conflict for humanitarian reasons?
luuurker 3y ago
You'll understand how it's your problem when you try to buy the latest SoC and can't because the TSMC fabs were destroyed during the invasion of Taiwan (or something like that).
- xvector 3y ago
  Okay, so we protect TSMC. What does Ukraine offer us?
  - coryrc 3y ago
    There's nothing more aligned with the US's moral reason for being than to defend a sovereign democratic country from being invaded by a nasty, brutish dictatorship. Something to atone for our sins (invading Iraq the second time and hanging the Kurds out to dry the first time, among others) and build back goodwill among other nations. We spend almost a trillion dollars a year on the military and equipment that's untested in battle, so let's see how well it would really work -- we're learning a lot already but we don't know if our good stuff is really as good as we think.
  - luuurker 3y ago
    Yes, "we" protect TSMC and others like them by providing Taiwan with weapons that makes a war/invasion very expensive and show that anyone that does that will have a though time. But you "have no interest in funding proxy wars with [your] tax dollars" or to "return to a Cold War era", so I guess fuck Taiwan and TSMC. Ukraine? I'm less familiar with Ukraine, but on top of having a friendly country in that part of the world and US influence (which is part of what makes the US the country it is, something you benefit from), didn't the US and the EU use some of their rocket engines or something like that? Not saying we can't survive without them, but to say there's nothing there also doesn't make sense. After reading some of Putin's reasoning to invade Ukraine and what he said about other countries in eastern Ukraine being essentially part of Russia, I have to ask what's cheaper (since you care about your tax dollars)? To send them equipment or to be dragged to a proper war with Russia after they decide to invade NATO countries? What's hit to the global economy and how much will it affect your wallet? Assuming that you care about anyone other than yourself, how much will this affect people around you?

pxmpxm 3y ago

> wants to join the EU/NATO will go around selling the West's equipment Yes, you clearly have never set foot in "eastern" Europe. And I'm saying that as someone that grew up there.

luuurker 3y ago
I'm not saying that some guy won't try to make a buck, but the incentive for those in power to allow that to happen is small when they depend on the west to maintain current weapons and get new ones. The F-16's won't fly for long without spare parts. Turkey bought the S400 and got kicked out of the F-35 program (even after paying for the planes)... and they're NATO members.

vpribish 3y ago

xvector is a troll or a tankie. No use talking to them, but thank you for responding so the impressionable don’t think their ideas are normal.

xvector 3y ago
"Everyone that disagrees with me is a Russian bot!" Okay. Not getting involved in irrelevant, needless wars isn't exactly a fringe take. Anyways, your comment history shows that you're such an angry/bitter/dismissive person that I don't expect you to engage in any discussion in good faith. So that'll be all from my end. Have a good day.