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South Korea and Taiwan were autocracies until relatively recently

by Redoubts 3y ago

leereeves 3y ago
Also the US didn't install the Taiwanese government.
- reissbaker 3y ago
  OP said "installed or propped up" — the US propped up the Taiwanese government and continues to prop it up militarily.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    I don't believe defending Taiwan from China counts as propping it up. That phrase should be limited to helping the government suppress internal resistance. But if it counts, then the US propped up every country in NATO by defending them from the USSR and Russia.
    - reissbaker 3y ago
      Taiwan/China, for the first few decades of their respective existences, were considered internal resistance by both the PRC (China) and the ROC (Taiwan), with the US backing the ROC. While sentiments about that are obviously pretty different in Taiwan today (although not in China!), I also think that the US/Taiwan relationship is still meaningfully different from, say, the US/UK relationship, and I think it counts as "propping up" to a greater extent than simply being a NATO member.
      - leereeves 3y ago
        The island of Taiwan/Formosa did have people on it before the RoC fled there, but they were not Chinese, they were aboriginal. Or Japanese, because the island was a Japanese colony until 1945. Rule of that island was hardly a Chinese internal matter, as it was in fact decided in 1945 by the United States (part of the surrender of Japan). And the U.S. State Department's official position in 1959 was that Formosa was not a part of China as a country. In short, the RoC lost the civil war completely and fled to new territory. After that, there was just the threat of the CCP pursuing the RoC beyond what were (certainly as recently as 1945) the borders of China.
        reissbaker 3y ago
        Neither China nor Taiwan agreed that they were separate countries — China still doesn't, and Taiwan only changed its position in 1991 — and both considered it internal affairs. I'm not sure what aboriginal Taiwanese people have to do with this, as 1. they had been citizens of imperial China for hundreds of years during the Qing dynasty, until Japan briefly and brutally colonized the island in 1895. And, 2. Han Chinese had been the majority on Taiwan since the 1600s — and parts of Taiwan (the Penghu islands) had in fact been originally Han Chinese, and had been ruled by China since the early days of the Yuan Dynasty (and semi-unofficially settled by China since the Song dynasty). It simply isn't true that "The island of Taiwan/Formosa did have people on it before the RoC fled there, but they were not Chinese." They were majority Chinese even on the main island, and had been for many centuries, long before the PRC vs RoC civil war. Taiwan was not "new territory" for China. If you're going to quote the State Department on whether Taiwan was originally part of China, then have a gander at their 1943 statement: "all the territories that Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Formosa and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Cairo_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Cairo_Declaration And while the U.S. claims that this was a statement of intent that was never fully implemented, it's still a statement of intent, and the RoC administered Taiwan post-WWII, and has never stopped. The RoC didn't flee to new territory, they fled to the last remnants of the existing territory that they could defend in a civil war. And the U.S. propped them up, and continues to do so (in my opinion rightfully, but of course, I'm biased). Also, this really isn't anything like the U.K. frankly.
reissbaker 3y ago
Had the US not helped prop them up, and SK was conquered by North Korea and Taiwan conquered by China, I think they would have been doomed to remain autocracies indefinitely.

South Korea and Taiwan were autocracies until relatively recently

leereeves 3y ago

Also the US didn't install the Taiwanese government.

reissbaker 3y ago
OP said "installed or propped up" — the US propped up the Taiwanese government and continues to prop it up militarily.
- leereeves 3y ago
  I don't believe defending Taiwan from China counts as propping it up. That phrase should be limited to helping the government suppress internal resistance. But if it counts, then the US propped up every country in NATO by defending them from the USSR and Russia.
  - reissbaker 3y ago
    Taiwan/China, for the first few decades of their respective existences, were considered internal resistance by both the PRC (China) and the ROC (Taiwan), with the US backing the ROC. While sentiments about that are obviously pretty different in Taiwan today (although not in China!), I also think that the US/Taiwan relationship is still meaningfully different from, say, the US/UK relationship, and I think it counts as "propping up" to a greater extent than simply being a NATO member.
    - leereeves 3y ago
      The island of Taiwan/Formosa did have people on it before the RoC fled there, but they were not Chinese, they were aboriginal. Or Japanese, because the island was a Japanese colony until 1945. Rule of that island was hardly a Chinese internal matter, as it was in fact decided in 1945 by the United States (part of the surrender of Japan). And the U.S. State Department's official position in 1959 was that Formosa was not a part of China as a country. In short, the RoC lost the civil war completely and fled to new territory. After that, there was just the threat of the CCP pursuing the RoC beyond what were (certainly as recently as 1945) the borders of China.
      - reissbaker 3y ago
        Neither China nor Taiwan agreed that they were separate countries — China still doesn't, and Taiwan only changed its position in 1991 — and both considered it internal affairs. I'm not sure what aboriginal Taiwanese people have to do with this, as 1. they had been citizens of imperial China for hundreds of years during the Qing dynasty, until Japan briefly and brutally colonized the island in 1895. And, 2. Han Chinese had been the majority on Taiwan since the 1600s — and parts of Taiwan (the Penghu islands) had in fact been originally Han Chinese, and had been ruled by China since the early days of the Yuan Dynasty (and semi-unofficially settled by China since the Song dynasty). It simply isn't true that "The island of Taiwan/Formosa did have people on it before the RoC fled there, but they were not Chinese." They were majority Chinese even on the main island, and had been for many centuries, long before the PRC vs RoC civil war. Taiwan was not "new territory" for China. If you're going to quote the State Department on whether Taiwan was originally part of China, then have a gander at their 1943 statement: "all the territories that Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Formosa and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Cairo_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Cairo_Declaration And while the U.S. claims that this was a statement of intent that was never fully implemented, it's still a statement of intent, and the RoC administered Taiwan post-WWII, and has never stopped. The RoC didn't flee to new territory, they fled to the last remnants of the existing territory that they could defend in a civil war. And the U.S. propped them up, and continues to do so (in my opinion rightfully, but of course, I'm biased). Also, this really isn't anything like the U.K. frankly.

reissbaker 3y ago

Had the US not helped prop them up, and SK was conquered by North Korea and Taiwan conquered by China, I think they would have been doomed to remain autocracies indefinitely.