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As a person who has written games, I think games are one of those weird cases where OO really shines, but I don't think it's representative of most general prog

As a person who has written games, I think games are one of those weird cases where OO really shines, but I don't think it's representative of most general programming problems. In my experience OO makes a ton of sense when you have a lot of mutable state that actually represents a tangible real world object or metaphor. So that works great for games, which are all about simulation, and where you actually have a lot of things that really do map to an "object". But, outside of simulations, a lot of programming problems come down to things that don't have a convenient real world mapping. A lot of it is just data transformations, and data transformations are awkward in an OO setting, because the focus is on the object rather than the process. This is where more functional styles really shine, (for instance, in compilers and such), where the existance of an object would be incredibly transient and short lived, because the goal is to transform one set of data into another representation. OOP basically sucks at this. Objects are certainly useful, but I think they've been fetishized to a weird degree.

telent 15y ago
> the focus is on the object rather than the process From a business apps point of view, this is exactly it. You might find that methods are subordinate to objects, but in the business domain itself, the objects themselves are manipulated by processes. It's a whole other layer above the OO layer, and failure to realise this means you either end up with lots of FooManager classes, or you push overarching responsiblities back down into low-level objects that don't really want them, and find you have too much coupling and not enough Demeter (Of course, you might be writing FooManager classes with this upper layer explicitly in mind - in which case fair enough and you'll probably like DCI. But I think there's still a lot of mileage in plain ordinary functions that don't have to belong to anything)
wladimir 15y ago
OOP works very well for UI code. I got introduced introduced to it in that way, back with Turbo Pascal. When you bought a compiler you got this wall-filling poster with the class hierarchy. Great fun. Nowadays, this is still reflected in toolkits such as Qt. It also tends to work for things that can be represented as opaque handles (such as files, sockets, ...). Polymorphism helps there to be be able to treat different but similar objects in the same way. No need for deep, nested hierarchies there though. But I agree that outside the domain of UIs it quickly diminishes in value.
- kls 15y ago
  I agree, I think where we went wrong is in these one size fits all type designs. I like OO and events for UI, I feel that it is more powerful than other paradigms like say controller / template. I think black box widgets that respond and emit events and that can be inherited work in a manner that reflects my thought process. For example I always use a select box, where you have the standard select box and via extension or mixing in, you can create a filtering select box that adds the behavior of filtering type ahead. To me this works very well and promoted loose coupling of the interface as well as reusability of components. Once I move past the UI though I really start to feel the burden of OO start to drag me down as far as productivity goes. It requires a lot of organizational overhead to force overtly service based functionality into OO structures, something like getUserList is functional at it's simplest form and should remain so. When working with Java I tend to discard OO by creating static functional classes that acts as a service and util layer. I find that doing so simplifies the architecture of the system and eliminates a lot of spaghetti code that has to be written to deal with making functional logic OO. For that reason I tend to prefer languages that can do both, or that don't force a pattern on you at all, and that leave it up to the library developers to work out patterns. JavaScript despite it warts is a good example of the library developers building out that layer of the language. I also find myself writing more and more back end code in Clojure for that reason, while it is a functional language it does not preclude the ability to write OO code if it is the right pattern for a particular problem set. I like not having to fight the language to break free of the constraint.

telent 15y ago

> the focus is on the object rather than the process From a business apps point of view, this is exactly it. You might find that methods are subordinate to objects, but in the business domain itself, the objects themselves are manipulated by processes. It's a whole other layer above the OO layer, and failure to realise this means you either end up with lots of FooManager classes, or you push overarching responsiblities back down into low-level objects that don't really want them, and find you have too much coupling and not enough Demeter (Of course, you might be writing FooManager classes with this upper layer explicitly in mind - in which case fair enough and you'll probably like DCI. But I think there's still a lot of mileage in plain ordinary functions that don't have to belong to anything)

wladimir 15y ago

OOP works very well for UI code. I got introduced introduced to it in that way, back with Turbo Pascal. When you bought a compiler you got this wall-filling poster with the class hierarchy. Great fun. Nowadays, this is still reflected in toolkits such as Qt. It also tends to work for things that can be represented as opaque handles (such as files, sockets, ...). Polymorphism helps there to be be able to treat different but similar objects in the same way. No need for deep, nested hierarchies there though. But I agree that outside the domain of UIs it quickly diminishes in value.

kls 15y ago
I agree, I think where we went wrong is in these one size fits all type designs. I like OO and events for UI, I feel that it is more powerful than other paradigms like say controller / template. I think black box widgets that respond and emit events and that can be inherited work in a manner that reflects my thought process. For example I always use a select box, where you have the standard select box and via extension or mixing in, you can create a filtering select box that adds the behavior of filtering type ahead. To me this works very well and promoted loose coupling of the interface as well as reusability of components. Once I move past the UI though I really start to feel the burden of OO start to drag me down as far as productivity goes. It requires a lot of organizational overhead to force overtly service based functionality into OO structures, something like getUserList is functional at it's simplest form and should remain so. When working with Java I tend to discard OO by creating static functional classes that acts as a service and util layer. I find that doing so simplifies the architecture of the system and eliminates a lot of spaghetti code that has to be written to deal with making functional logic OO. For that reason I tend to prefer languages that can do both, or that don't force a pattern on you at all, and that leave it up to the library developers to work out patterns. JavaScript despite it warts is a good example of the library developers building out that layer of the language. I also find myself writing more and more back end code in Clojure for that reason, while it is a functional language it does not preclude the ability to write OO code if it is the right pattern for a particular problem set. I like not having to fight the language to break free of the constraint.