4 ms·
I have to imagine building 2.5 swimming pools worth of water storage is cheaper than filling a single swimming pool with a heavy liquid. They typically go for $
by jjk166 3y ago
I have to imagine building 2.5 swimming pools worth of water storage is cheaper than filling a single swimming pool with a heavy liquid. They typically go for $100-$1000/kg, with the non-toxic ones of course being the more expensive.
No idea what the article is talking about wrt being able to utilize lower heights, as the amount of power you can get from a certain drop is independent of density. Higher density decreases the size of the pipes and turbines, so there is a potential economic benefit, but it doesn't change what locations are viable.
- isoprophlex 3y agoI'm imagining two connected olympic swimming pools, at the base and on top of a mountain, filled with liquid mercury...
- theragra 3y agohttps://www.bing.com/images/create/two-connected-olympic-swimming-pools2c-at-the-base-/64e109e8c05c4c7a8429d3b5fdbde0e0?id=ovsqMVH7cSSzhz3A36w9hg%3d%3d&view=detailv2&idpp=genimg&FORM=GCRIDP&mode=overlay https://www.bing.com/images/create/two-connected-olympic-swi...
- ragebol 3y agoThe equation for potential energy is U = m ⋅ g ⋅ h, so higher density factors into higher mass (per unit volume) so directly into higher energy storage capacity.
- fnordpiglet 3y agoBut as they stated it translates into higher energy storage capacity (per unit volume). This translates into smaller footprints as volumes go down, but that’s it. Now, mercury is almost 14 times more dense than water so that’s nothing to sneeze at.
- jjk166 3y agoWhich generates more energy, dropping 1000 tons of water 100 meters, or dropping 1000 tons of steel 100 meters? Volume matters for the sizing of components, it doesn't matter for the amount of energy you can extract from a height differential.
- nine_k 3y agoStorage tanks are limited by volume, not mass.
- jjk166 3y agoWhich falls under the category of component sizing. But assuming you have however much mass at a given height, a denser fluid won't let you extract the same amount of energy from a lower height, which is what the company is claiming.
- hdjfkfbfbr 3y agoThere is also craned power generation BTW.. Concrete blocks are stacked with a crane.. They are then dropped to the ground and the potential energy harvested by the cranes motor
- fbdab103 3y ago>They typically go for $100-$1000/kg... I was doing some searching, but was unable to pin down precise numbers for industrial water rates, but I am seeing something in the single dollars ($3-8) per thousand gallons. Assuming I did not bork my conversions, at $5/1000 gallons, that would be roughly $0.001/kg for water. So, a novel heavy liquid priced at the whole dollars per kg sounds like an enormous capex for a large installation when it could use water instead.
- mike_d 3y agoThe article mentions their plan is to bury the tanks. That is stupid expensive, and one of the reasons existing water storage tanks are never buried in the US.
- Animats 3y agoBuried water storage tanks are not rare. The San Francisco Water Department has some in their system.[1][2] They're basically roofed concrete reservoirs. Those store clean, processed water. Those could have been fully buried or hidden, but, being visible only from the air, it wasn't worth it. [1] https://earth.google.com/web/@37.48236017,-122.3128578,104.79600237a,1047.65270829d,35y,0h,0t,0r https://earth.google.com/web/@37.48236017,-122.3128578,104.7... [2] https://earth.google.com/web/@37.53843703,-121.85711496,126.41496859a,679.56044537d,35y,0h,0t,0r https://earth.google.com/web/@37.53843703,-121.85711496,126....
- almostnormal 3y agoThat's easy and cheap per volume: Drill a small hole into a mountain. Add a nuke. It's not for water suitable for consumption, but it doesn't have to be.
- aydyn 3y agoJust nuke a mountain, that'll solve climate change. Peak HN.
- adrianmonk 3y ago> heavy liquid. They typically go for $100-$1000/kg This company has their own proprietary heavy fluid called R-19. Their formula isn't public, but presumably they understand the success of their company depends on it being affordable. > No idea what the article is talking about wrt being able to utilize lower heights It means that, if pumped storage starts to look worth it to you (given budget, etc.) with tanks of size V and a height difference of H, then with their system it might be worth it if the tallest hill available to you is H/2.5. Or you can keep the height the same and reduce the volume. Or keep both the same and increase the storage. The point is that they claim to offer a better trade-off.
- KennyBlanken 3y agoThey claim they have a fluid. The patent says "minerals", water, and "surfactant." Translation: mud/sand. I can't help but notice that the name they're using is the same as an insulation material; seems almost purposeful to make looking up anything about it very difficult. I don't think they have anything and this is just a patent troll or someone trying to pull a fast one on investors. I'd be willing to bet they have a long list of reasons why they can't come up with demonstration unit that is room or building-sized...
- jaclaz 3y agoIt could be something like bentonite/baryte or similar drlling muds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drilling_mud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drilling_mud
- pfdietz 3y agoDrilling mud, however, needs to be at least somewhat viscous, so it will carry rock fragments from the drilling back to the surface.
- jaclaz 3y agoSure, but it depends also on the kind of drilling and of the terrain that is drilled, drilling mud is used also when drilling with buckets large holes, in those cases the use is only that of avoiding the collapse of the walls of the bore. The generic idea behind these supposedly high efficiency reservoirs is to have something that is at the same time liquid enough and much heavier than water, most probably the actual formulation will be a compromise.
- sjducb 3y agoYou need to generate enough pressure to run the turbines efficiently. High density means high pressure with a small drop. A small drop means you don’t need a mountain to build the facility.