4 ms·

"I'd spend a billion dollars to make the creation of a car company turnkey. Make it easy to get all the safety and regulatory approvals... as easy to start a ca

by rewind 18y ago

"I'd spend a billion dollars to make the creation of a car company turnkey. Make it easy to get all the safety and regulatory approvals... as easy to start a car company as it is to start a web company." If it is ever as easy to start a car company as it is to start a Web company, then something is wrong. People can't drive their browsers into each other at 100MPH. Also, there is no problem with the idea of big car companies. Big companies have increasing economies of scale and can offer significant savings to consumers. A poorly-run big company is a problem, not the size of the company itself.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
potatolicious 18y ago
And this is why hackers should not make comments on mechanical and electrical engineering. Especially web hackers - who have absolutely no regulatory (nor moral, usually) concerns when it comes to the safety and reliability of their products. I consider myself a hacker, but I am a mechanical engineer by training. I've worked in car plants, and I think I'm much more uniquely qualified to speak on this subject than the blog author. People do not comprehend the kind of cash that a car company needs (and should need) to get into the market. Let me detail the process of producing your car's radiator motor (just the motor!): - Come up with your awesome motor design (doesn't cost a lot, assuming you and your fellow startup partners are good engineers) - Draft your designs (draftsmen around here are unionized, and paid a great deal for their work) - Build a proof of concept. In fact, build several (requires access to a very extensive machine shop, and unless your founders are all exceptionally talented machinists, you have to pay unionized labour more money to get this done) - Now build several hundred more prototypes. These will go through performance and reliability testing. This will require access to heat testing chambers, sound testing labs, strength testing machinery... you name it. Each of these labs can't really be rented, and cost tens of millions to build and staff. Each piece of equipment needs to be certified by the relevant safety and regulatory body ($$$), and you'll need several people on board full time just to document everything to the minutae required by the same bodies ($$$). Do you know how much a certified laser micrometer costs? And that's just to get your first working prototype. You're already probably 8-digits invested by this point, and you haven't even yet built out the necessary infrastructure to mass produce your product. By the way, casting a mould for a single part (e.g. your motor casing) costs $200-300K by itself, so moving towards production is not cheap either. Now multiply that by the tens of thousands of parts in your car. People (especially software types) simply do not appreciate the sheer, ridiculous amount of effort (and money) it takes to keep them safe. This is also why I'm always wary of cheap goods, because I have seen first hand the difference between well-designed, properly tested products vs. not. The car industry can never move back towards a tiny-startup model. Sure, there may be room for smaller players, but "thousands of startups" like the web model will never fly, unless you enjoy having your wheels fly off the axle as you drive.
- mixmax 18y ago
  Great comment. People (especially software types) simply do not appreciate the sheer, ridiculous amount of effort (and money) it takes to keep them safe. This is also why I'm always wary of cheap goods, because I have seen first hand the difference between well-designed, properly tested products vs. not. What car do you drive?
  - potatolicious 18y ago
    I actually don't drive :) But based on my experience in that car plant, here are some pointers, just IMHO: - Avoid Pontiacs at all costs. The quality difference between, say, a Sunfire and a Chevy Cobalt is ridiculous. Even "higher end" cars like the G6 are somewhat questionable. Chrysler are built cheap. The radiator motor that I worked on while I was there was timed to stop working after about 4-5 years (brushes in the motor will wear out). - Avoid anything built in Mexico. This is not a knock against Mexicans, but my company's Mexican plant was completely devoid of precision manufacturing. Where an American plant would laser-guide parts into their fittings, in Mexico they're literally eyeballed (and malleted!). A full 80+ percent of warranty returns were due to parts built in Mexico. - The high-end Chryslers are actually pretty good in terms of quality, and when I was working there the Ford Fusion was still under development - and based on what I saw (of the radiator design) Ford seemed like they were willing to pay for good parts. A good sign I suppose. - Nothing beats Mercedes and BMW in quality. You do get something for your money, regardless of what people might say. Whether the cost per unit-quality is low enough for you is your own decision though :) Where GM was running brush motors, BMW runs entirely brushless (e.g. theoretically infinite lifetime, will run as long as your solid state electronics and assemblies hold together), and they're powerful to boot.
    - jfornear 18y ago
      What about Toyota, Honda, or Mazda? Volkswagon/Audi? I'm just wondering. Are you basing your entire assessment on these brush motors?
      - potatolicious 18y ago

by rewind 18y ago

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

potatolicious 18y ago

And this is why hackers should not make comments on mechanical and electrical engineering. Especially web hackers - who have absolutely no regulatory (nor moral, usually) concerns when it comes to the safety and reliability of their products. I consider myself a hacker, but I am a mechanical engineer by training. I've worked in car plants, and I think I'm much more uniquely qualified to speak on this subject than the blog author. People do not comprehend the kind of cash that a car company needs (and should need) to get into the market. Let me detail the process of producing your car's radiator motor (just the motor!): - Come up with your awesome motor design (doesn't cost a lot, assuming you and your fellow startup partners are good engineers) - Draft your designs (draftsmen around here are unionized, and paid a great deal for their work) - Build a proof of concept. In fact, build several (requires access to a very extensive machine shop, and unless your founders are all exceptionally talented machinists, you have to pay unionized labour more money to get this done) - Now build several hundred more prototypes. These will go through performance and reliability testing. This will require access to heat testing chambers, sound testing labs, strength testing machinery... you name it. Each of these labs can't really be rented, and cost tens of millions to build and staff. Each piece of equipment needs to be certified by the relevant safety and regulatory body ($$$), and you'll need several people on board full time just to document everything to the minutae required by the same bodies ($$$). Do you know how much a certified laser micrometer costs? And that's just to get your first working prototype. You're already probably 8-digits invested by this point, and you haven't even yet built out the necessary infrastructure to mass produce your product. By the way, casting a mould for a single part (e.g. your motor casing) costs $200-300K by itself, so moving towards production is not cheap either. Now multiply that by the tens of thousands of parts in your car. People (especially software types) simply do not appreciate the sheer, ridiculous amount of effort (and money) it takes to keep them safe. This is also why I'm always wary of cheap goods, because I have seen first hand the difference between well-designed, properly tested products vs. not. The car industry can never move back towards a tiny-startup model. Sure, there may be room for smaller players, but "thousands of startups" like the web model will never fly, unless you enjoy having your wheels fly off the axle as you drive.

mixmax 18y ago
Great comment. People (especially software types) simply do not appreciate the sheer, ridiculous amount of effort (and money) it takes to keep them safe. This is also why I'm always wary of cheap goods, because I have seen first hand the difference between well-designed, properly tested products vs. not. What car do you drive?
- potatolicious 18y ago
  I actually don't drive :) But based on my experience in that car plant, here are some pointers, just IMHO: - Avoid Pontiacs at all costs. The quality difference between, say, a Sunfire and a Chevy Cobalt is ridiculous. Even "higher end" cars like the G6 are somewhat questionable. Chrysler are built cheap. The radiator motor that I worked on while I was there was timed to stop working after about 4-5 years (brushes in the motor will wear out). - Avoid anything built in Mexico. This is not a knock against Mexicans, but my company's Mexican plant was completely devoid of precision manufacturing. Where an American plant would laser-guide parts into their fittings, in Mexico they're literally eyeballed (and malleted!). A full 80+ percent of warranty returns were due to parts built in Mexico. - The high-end Chryslers are actually pretty good in terms of quality, and when I was working there the Ford Fusion was still under development - and based on what I saw (of the radiator design) Ford seemed like they were willing to pay for good parts. A good sign I suppose. - Nothing beats Mercedes and BMW in quality. You do get something for your money, regardless of what people might say. Whether the cost per unit-quality is low enough for you is your own decision though :) Where GM was running brush motors, BMW runs entirely brushless (e.g. theoretically infinite lifetime, will run as long as your solid state electronics and assemblies hold together), and they're powerful to boot.
  - jfornear 18y ago
    What about Toyota, Honda, or Mazda? Volkswagon/Audi? I'm just wondering. Are you basing your entire assessment on these brush motors?
    - potatolicious 18y ago