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I own a Bambu P1S and Bambu does not deserve the benefit of the doubt in this case. The cloud (anti-)feature is entirely unnecessary and gives them free license

I own a Bambu P1S and Bambu does not deserve the benefit of the doubt in this case. The cloud (anti-)feature is entirely unnecessary and gives them free license to use all recordings from the webcam in the printer. The printer has to be connected to the “cloud” in order to access the webcam, control the internal lights, and control the print head and heated bed from their Bambu app. However, part of the initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer without an internet connection. They intentionally ruined the user experience in LAN-only mode to persuade people to connect their printers to the Bambu cloud service.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
> However, part of the initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer without an internet connection. This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? Unless you are complaining that you can’t use the smartphone app, while at your own home on Wi-Fi, without connecting to the cloud. That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. Finally, while it doesn’t work from the app, you can control those things and view footage using the Bambu Studio desktop app without a cloud connection, IIRC. You just need a PC, not a phone, though I would argue this makes sense as a fair trade-off considering the consumer demographics. A PC would be way more reliable anyway as your phone would be switching onto cell tower networks which obviously don’t have your printer on them. Edit: Also, Bluetooth tops out under perfect conditions at 2.2 Megabits. Real world is far lower. You can’t reliably send a video stream over Bluetooth. Heck, Apple doesn’t even try to send a lossless audio stream over Bluetooth.
- bbielsa 3y ago
  > This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. I may not have made myself clear with my original argument, I meant to say offline controls are clearly possible. So if offline controls are possible there’s 0 excuses for controls not to be available in LAN-only mode. (LAN-only is wifi connected, cloud disabled) > All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? It is way easier to tap a button on the app when dealing with hardware issues than using the built in menus (that’s my opinion). But more importantly there is no valid reason to not make them available in LAN-only mode, that was an intentional decision on their part. > That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. The 3D printing community is pretty technical, so I think anyone disabling cloud mode would be able to understand the consequences. An opt-out (without degrading the experience) is all bambu owners are asking for. And keep in mind 3D printers are a fire hazard so printing while you aren’t home is a risk.
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    I told you already, it’s called Bambu Studio. It offers remote control, and monitoring, to a locally networked PC. https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/software/bambu-studio/remote-control https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/software/bambu-studio/remote-co... You just can’t do it from your phone. Which, considering your phone likes connecting to cell phone towers (and thus disconnecting from your printer), I completely get why they didn’t want to bother.
    - BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
      > considering your phone likes connecting to cell phone towers (and thus disconnecting from your printer) I don't know what kind of weird broken phones you have, but every smart phone I've ever used has had no trouble connecting to things on local networks via wifi even when not in a cell deadzone. Your objection sounds made up to me.
      - deleted 3y ago
- Aloha 3y ago
  I see no reason why you couldn't run a printer over BT, indeed there are meany BT printers out there.
  - Etrnl_President 3y ago
    You're missing the point; Without Cloud connection, how would the Gongfay Kommissariat know what you're printing so they can deduct Sesame Credit?
- techie128 3y ago
  You're missing the point. Instead of focusing on 'Bluetooth', focus on GP's underlying point which was that Bamboo should make it possible to have offline experience which is comparable to the cloud connected experience. Now to address your original concern about Bluetooth. Bluetooth is not the best fit but Bamboo printers do have WiFi. They can host local web UI which is what pretty much every other product does. It requires will and resources to support offline tooling for users though. It also reduces the probability that the user will subscribe to their cloud services, if any. Coming to the point of an App only working at home. Well, there are several ways to address this issue WITHOUT requiring a user to use their Cloud offering. A simple way is to EDUCATE your users that the app will only function on local wifi. Average users are smarter than you think. If the user would like their app to work when they're not home, offer them an option to connect to the cloud but do not make it mandatory. Next, the printer can use a combination of UPnP, Dynamic DNS to expose it over the internet. Yes, it is scary to do this but with the right security practices it is possible to expose your printer over the internet so your app can reach it. You don't need their cloud to be the intermediary. Finally, these printers will likely stop working entirely if the company goes out of business or decides to wind down their 3D printing business or just plain planned obsolescence of specific models. All in all, subscription & online paid services for hardware products is an anti-consumer model.
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    I am convinced you have no idea what you are talking about. > Finally, these printers will likely stop working entirely if the company goes out of business or decides to wind down their 3D printing business or just plain planned obsolescence of specific models They can be set up without internet. They can print from a microSD card without internet. I have a Bambu X1, have never connected it to the internet, and everything works fine. No worse than a Prusa from 2 years ago would have. Except, even better, I can connect it to a LAN, without internet, and access the camera from my PC using their open-source desktop app. I can’t do it from my phone, but my PC isn’t hopping between networks constantly. Saying it will die if the company goes bankrupt is pure FUD. I don’t know if it’s worth addressing the other points considering this level of ignorance. Especially this: > Next, the printer can use a combination of UPnP, Dynamic DNS to expose it over the internet. Yes, it is scary to do this but with the right security practices it is possible to expose your printer over the internet so your app can reach it. You don't need their cloud to be the intermediary. This has the reasonability of the now-infamous Hacker News diss when Dropbox was invented. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 Also, we are in an IP Address shortage. More internet companies like StarLink are disabling port forwarding because they don’t have enough addresses and the cost per address is currently insane. It might not even be an option for a growing number of people out of technical necessity. In addition, many ISPs, including mine (Xfinity), reserve the right to ban you for running a home server of any kind - Bambu obviously doesn’t view encouraging people to persue activities that could get them banned from their ISP as a viable solution. Even with a warning sticker.
dawnerd 3y ago
They’ve been improving lan only move including allowing you to view the video feed. I think you’re being a bit hard on them when they’ve already said they’re making more improvements to lan only and they’re listening to feedback. They released a statement about this issue pretty fast and seemed for transparent than most companies would have been.
- fbdab103 3y ago
  What is the justification that the company is entitled to all of my data? This is no different from HP using dark patterns to get the average consumer to lock their printer into the cloud. A pinkie promise that, "We'll do better after you got burned for our data-collection greed" falls a little flat.
  - Filligree 3y ago
    The data in question is how the build plate looks while printing, which gets directly fed back into the ML model used to detect print failures. Spaghetti detection is half the point of owning one. The camera we’re talking about only sees the inside of the printer.
    - hansvm 3y ago
      > The camera we’re talking about only sees the inside of the printer Devil's advocate, inadvertent peephole cameras and reflections in surprisingly small regions of interest are a fact of how light interacts with glass, metals, low-tolerance parts, and the other sorts of things that make up the printer. There are lots of recent fun papers inverting the pattern going around a curved painted corner or through a hole accommodating the string holding up your blinds or whatnot to get a detailed view of what's on the other side. Their malicious use cases are probably less cutting edge.
    - porkbeer 3y ago
      So using it for r&d is out of the question apparently.
gumballindie 3y ago
Why on earth do 3D printers need a cloud connection, but most importantly why do people buy them?
- baz00 3y ago
  [flagged]
- parsimo2010 3y ago
  Bambu had a pretty big marketing campaign with their printers. All the major reviewers/influencers in the 3d printing community were provided review samples, and presumably talking points to emphasize. Most all reviews focused on the high print speeds and advanced technology in the printers. Things like the nearly required cloud integration were glossed over with "that's normal today and you get so many shiny features with it" and hardly anyone challenged Bambu by saying that most of the features enabled by cloud integration didn't really need the cloud to be implemented. Things like immature firmware were glossed over with comments like "there are some bugs but that can be fixed over time, so just go ahead and assume that this young company without a proven track record will provide good support to these printers." Add the marketing to the consideration that there were no other pre-built "fast" printers when the Bambu printers hit the market. Your only other option was to build your own like a Voron, which many people didn't want to do. Now there are other pre-built options that don't require cloud integration, so people can really weigh the pros/cons of the other options, but Bambu got an advantage by being first to market.
  - f001 3y ago
    What would you recommend as an alternative pre-built “fast” printer?
    - parsimo2010 3y ago
      If cloud connectivity concerns you, the only pre-built option I’d recommend is Prusa. The mk4 isn’t as fast as Bambu’s printers, but that is a trade you will have decided on. I’d still put the mk4 in the “fast” category. The mk4 is completely open source. Prusa is the most reputable company in terms of trustworthiness.
mvdtnz 3y ago
You had a lot of options when you purchased that unit yet you still chose Bambu.

gjsman-1000 3y ago

> However, part of the initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer without an internet connection. This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? Unless you are complaining that you can’t use the smartphone app, while at your own home on Wi-Fi, without connecting to the cloud. That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. Finally, while it doesn’t work from the app, you can control those things and view footage using the Bambu Studio desktop app without a cloud connection, IIRC. You just need a PC, not a phone, though I would argue this makes sense as a fair trade-off considering the consumer demographics. A PC would be way more reliable anyway as your phone would be switching onto cell tower networks which obviously don’t have your printer on them. Edit: Also, Bluetooth tops out under perfect conditions at 2.2 Megabits. Real world is far lower. You can’t reliably send a video stream over Bluetooth. Heck, Apple doesn’t even try to send a lossless audio stream over Bluetooth.

bbielsa 3y ago
> This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go… 30 feet. I may not have made myself clear with my original argument, I meant to say offline controls are clearly possible. So if offline controls are possible there’s 0 excuses for controls not to be available in LAN-only mode. (LAN-only is wifi connected, cloud disabled) > All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be controlled on the printer itself, so what’s the point? It is way easier to tap a button on the app when dealing with hardware issues than using the built in menus (that’s my opinion). But more importantly there is no valid reason to not make them available in LAN-only mode, that was an intentional decision on their part. > That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and upsetting. The 3D printing community is pretty technical, so I think anyone disabling cloud mode would be able to understand the consequences. An opt-out (without degrading the experience) is all bambu owners are asking for. And keep in mind 3D printers are a fire hazard so printing while you aren’t home is a risk.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  I told you already, it’s called Bambu Studio. It offers remote control, and monitoring, to a locally networked PC. https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/software/bambu-studio/remote-control https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/software/bambu-studio/remote-co... You just can’t do it from your phone. Which, considering your phone likes connecting to cell phone towers (and thus disconnecting from your printer), I completely get why they didn’t want to bother.
  - BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
    > considering your phone likes connecting to cell phone towers (and thus disconnecting from your printer) I don't know what kind of weird broken phones you have, but every smart phone I've ever used has had no trouble connecting to things on local networks via wifi even when not in a cell deadzone. Your objection sounds made up to me.
    - deleted 3y ago
Aloha 3y ago
I see no reason why you couldn't run a printer over BT, indeed there are meany BT printers out there.
- Etrnl_President 3y ago
  You're missing the point; Without Cloud connection, how would the Gongfay Kommissariat know what you're printing so they can deduct Sesame Credit?
techie128 3y ago
You're missing the point. Instead of focusing on 'Bluetooth', focus on GP's underlying point which was that Bamboo should make it possible to have offline experience which is comparable to the cloud connected experience. Now to address your original concern about Bluetooth. Bluetooth is not the best fit but Bamboo printers do have WiFi. They can host local web UI which is what pretty much every other product does. It requires will and resources to support offline tooling for users though. It also reduces the probability that the user will subscribe to their cloud services, if any. Coming to the point of an App only working at home. Well, there are several ways to address this issue WITHOUT requiring a user to use their Cloud offering. A simple way is to EDUCATE your users that the app will only function on local wifi. Average users are smarter than you think. If the user would like their app to work when they're not home, offer them an option to connect to the cloud but do not make it mandatory. Next, the printer can use a combination of UPnP, Dynamic DNS to expose it over the internet. Yes, it is scary to do this but with the right security practices it is possible to expose your printer over the internet so your app can reach it. You don't need their cloud to be the intermediary. Finally, these printers will likely stop working entirely if the company goes out of business or decides to wind down their 3D printing business or just plain planned obsolescence of specific models. All in all, subscription & online paid services for hardware products is an anti-consumer model.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  I am convinced you have no idea what you are talking about. > Finally, these printers will likely stop working entirely if the company goes out of business or decides to wind down their 3D printing business or just plain planned obsolescence of specific models They can be set up without internet. They can print from a microSD card without internet. I have a Bambu X1, have never connected it to the internet, and everything works fine. No worse than a Prusa from 2 years ago would have. Except, even better, I can connect it to a LAN, without internet, and access the camera from my PC using their open-source desktop app. I can’t do it from my phone, but my PC isn’t hopping between networks constantly. Saying it will die if the company goes bankrupt is pure FUD. I don’t know if it’s worth addressing the other points considering this level of ignorance. Especially this: > Next, the printer can use a combination of UPnP, Dynamic DNS to expose it over the internet. Yes, it is scary to do this but with the right security practices it is possible to expose your printer over the internet so your app can reach it. You don't need their cloud to be the intermediary. This has the reasonability of the now-infamous Hacker News diss when Dropbox was invented. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 Also, we are in an IP Address shortage. More internet companies like StarLink are disabling port forwarding because they don’t have enough addresses and the cost per address is currently insane. It might not even be an option for a growing number of people out of technical necessity. In addition, many ISPs, including mine (Xfinity), reserve the right to ban you for running a home server of any kind - Bambu obviously doesn’t view encouraging people to persue activities that could get them banned from their ISP as a viable solution. Even with a warning sticker.

dawnerd 3y ago

They’ve been improving lan only move including allowing you to view the video feed. I think you’re being a bit hard on them when they’ve already said they’re making more improvements to lan only and they’re listening to feedback. They released a statement about this issue pretty fast and seemed for transparent than most companies would have been.

fbdab103 3y ago
What is the justification that the company is entitled to all of my data? This is no different from HP using dark patterns to get the average consumer to lock their printer into the cloud. A pinkie promise that, "We'll do better after you got burned for our data-collection greed" falls a little flat.
- Filligree 3y ago
  The data in question is how the build plate looks while printing, which gets directly fed back into the ML model used to detect print failures. Spaghetti detection is half the point of owning one. The camera we’re talking about only sees the inside of the printer.
  - hansvm 3y ago
    > The camera we’re talking about only sees the inside of the printer Devil's advocate, inadvertent peephole cameras and reflections in surprisingly small regions of interest are a fact of how light interacts with glass, metals, low-tolerance parts, and the other sorts of things that make up the printer. There are lots of recent fun papers inverting the pattern going around a curved painted corner or through a hole accommodating the string holding up your blinds or whatnot to get a detailed view of what's on the other side. Their malicious use cases are probably less cutting edge.
  - porkbeer 3y ago
    So using it for r&d is out of the question apparently.

gumballindie 3y ago

Why on earth do 3D printers need a cloud connection, but most importantly why do people buy them?

baz00 3y ago
[flagged]
parsimo2010 3y ago
Bambu had a pretty big marketing campaign with their printers. All the major reviewers/influencers in the 3d printing community were provided review samples, and presumably talking points to emphasize. Most all reviews focused on the high print speeds and advanced technology in the printers. Things like the nearly required cloud integration were glossed over with "that's normal today and you get so many shiny features with it" and hardly anyone challenged Bambu by saying that most of the features enabled by cloud integration didn't really need the cloud to be implemented. Things like immature firmware were glossed over with comments like "there are some bugs but that can be fixed over time, so just go ahead and assume that this young company without a proven track record will provide good support to these printers." Add the marketing to the consideration that there were no other pre-built "fast" printers when the Bambu printers hit the market. Your only other option was to build your own like a Voron, which many people didn't want to do. Now there are other pre-built options that don't require cloud integration, so people can really weigh the pros/cons of the other options, but Bambu got an advantage by being first to market.
- f001 3y ago
  What would you recommend as an alternative pre-built “fast” printer?
  - parsimo2010 3y ago
    If cloud connectivity concerns you, the only pre-built option I’d recommend is Prusa. The mk4 isn’t as fast as Bambu’s printers, but that is a trade you will have decided on. I’d still put the mk4 in the “fast” category. The mk4 is completely open source. Prusa is the most reputable company in terms of trustworthiness.

mvdtnz 3y ago

You had a lot of options when you purchased that unit yet you still chose Bambu.