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> Without fertilizers? Nope. Look into syntropic and natural farming, for example. Syntropic Farming: - Concept: This approach is based on the principles of

by myshpa 3y ago

> Without fertilizers? Nope. Look into syntropic and natural farming, for example. Syntropic Farming: - Concept: This approach is based on the principles of succession in natural ecosystems. It mimics natural processes to regenerate the land, creating a resilient system where various plant species support each other. - Yield: Initial yields might be lower than industrial farming, but over time, as the ecosystem stabilizes and soil health improves, yields can be sustained without much external input. - Advantages: Builds soil health, reduces the need for external inputs, enhances biodiversity, sequesters carbon, and can be more resilient to climatic fluctuations. - Limitations: Requires deeper understanding and observation of natural processes, may not produce as high yields initially, and might require more labor in the beginning stages. Natural Farming (or Do-Nothing Farming): - Concept: Introduced by Masanobu Fukuoka, this method avoids plowing, chemical fertilizers, weeding, and pesticides. Instead, it promotes the use of cover crops and natural fertilizers. - Yield: Yields can be comparable to conventional methods after the system stabilizes, but there might be fluctuations depending on environmental conditions. - Advantages: Low external input, builds soil health, encourages biodiversity, reduces erosion, and is less labor-intensive in the long run. - Limitations: There's a learning curve to understanding the balance of natural systems, initial yields might be lower, and it might not be suitable for all crop types or large-scale monocultures. > Potatoes are similar: 60 bushels per acre in 1900, 500 bushels now. Farming practices were less advanced, and there was a limited understanding of pest and disease management. The lack of resistant varieties meant that pests and diseases could cause substantial yield losses (potato blight for example). > Do you think that hundreds of thousands of people working in agricultural research are idiots and/or bribed into silence by large companies I believe we stopped developing new methods a long time ago, compromising biodiversity, soil, and human health. The entrenched belief that we need animal products for sustenance prevents us from exploring new, more sustainable methods. Furthermore, the current financial system does not accommodate experimentation, learning, and the adoption of sustainable practices. > Once we perfect vat-grown meat, sure. We may destroy all remaining biodiversity before we find ways to achieve that on the necessary scale.

cyberax 3y ago
> Look into syntropic and natural farming, for example. You clearly don't understand what I'm saying. You can "regenerate" this and "natural" that all you can, but it simply won't work. There is NOT enough naturally fixed nitrogen (and phosphorus) to sustain yields that are needed to feed people. > Farming practices were less advanced, and there was a limited understanding of pest and disease management. The lack of resistant varieties meant that pests and diseases could cause substantial yield losses (potato blight for example). Nope. It's all nitrogen and phosphorus fertilizers. Modern cultivars are also more adapted to utilizing the higher levels of nitrogen, and they just won't thrive with the starvation-era agricultural practices. > I believe we stopped developing new methods Then you're a moron and/or ignorant of what is actually happening.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > There is NOT enough naturally fixed nitrogen (and phosphorus) to sustain yields that are needed to feed people You're mistaken. https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-farmers-stop-fighting-nature-and-learn-to-embrace-it/ https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-f... He refused to use artificial fertilizers and pesticides. He let most of the land grow naturally, and on 12 hectares (30 acres) he planted bananas and cocoa, cutting back the surrounding trees regularly. Today, he harvests an average 920 kgs (2,000 lb) of cocoa beans per hectare, more than three times the average across Brazil of 300 kg (660 lb) per hectare. And because he doesn’t spend money on fertilizers and pesticides, unlike the farmers around him, Götsch enjoys higher profits. https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/ https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/ The yield from the system usually equates to and often surpasses that of the conventional counterpart. The other plants grown within the systems result in additional income for the farmer, covering the labor cost. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/organic-farming-yields-and-feeding-the-world-under-climate-change/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/organic-farming-y... Organic agriculture delivers just 5 percent less yield in rain-watered legume crops, such as alfalfa or beans, and in perennial crops, such as fruit trees. But when it comes to major cereal crops, such as corn or wheat, and vegetables, such as broccoli, conventional methods delivered more than 25 percent more yield. Organic farmers should use best management practices, supply more organic fertilizers or grow legumes or perennial crops. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13593-023-00884-x?code=adafbffd-0e92-4903-94fb-77bda6ead50e https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13593-023-00884-x... Natural farming improves crop yield in SE India when compared to conventional or organic systems by enhancing soil quality https://www.nature.com/articles/nature11069 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature11069 with good management practices, particular crop types and growing conditions—organic systems can thus nearly match conventional yields https://www.motherearthnews.com/sustainable-living/nature-and-environment/masanobu-fukuoka-zmaz82jazgoe/ https://www.motherearthnews.com/sustainable-living/nature-an... Yet his acres consistently produce harvests that equal or surpass those of his neighbors who use labor-intensive, chemical-dependent methods. Fukuoka’s system of farming is amazing not only for its yields, but also for the fact that he has not plowed his fields for more than 30 years! Nor does he use prepared fertilizer — not even compost — on his land, or weed his rows, or flood his rice paddies. > I wonder, do people really think that all farmers are morons? > You can "regenerate" this and "natural" that all you can, but it simply won't work > Then you're a moron and/or ignorant of what is actually happening. I'm not a farmer, and I just love farmers ;) But I'm aware what's happening, and how destructive "modern" agriculture is. Do you realize the extent to which we have depleted wildlife, insects, and fish populations, and how limited their numbers have become? Do you realize the extent to which we have depleted our soils and how little of them remains? Are you aware what pesticides and herbicides are doing to the wildlife and to our health? Are you aware we're in the overshoot, e.g. consuming and polluting more than what earth can handle, and that with new countries developing the demands will only continue to grow? Are you aware that agriculture, and animal agriculture specifically, is a leading driver of deforestation and biodiversity loss? Are you aware that animal populations have seen 70% reductions just in the last 50 years, insects are 80% gone, seas will be almost empty in 2040's? That we're witnessing the sixth extinction, something that should take apx. 2.8 million years, but we'll manage that in less than 100 years? Are you truly content with the current situation and genuinely believe that what we're doing aligns with the responsibilities of good stewards of the Earth? Are you absolutely certain that, considering the world's population has reached 8 billion, we should continue prioritizing our eating habits over sustainability? Are you aware that we're destroying rainforests to grow and import animal feed? Are you aware that more of the habitable earth is dedicated to animal agriculture than to forests?? Are you aware that livestock make up 62% of the world’s mammal biomass; humans account for 34%; and wild mammals are just 4%? Are you aware that poultry weighs more than twice that of wild birds? https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ Are you really not seeing the need to "regenerate" ? Clearly, you believe that we have to keep doing what we're doing. As a result, you will likely continue to eliminate every living thing around your fields for the remaining few years, until biodiversity collapses, just to maintain your profits. Hope you stay healthy and avoid developing Parkinson's, a fate that has befallen many of your colleagues due to the pesticides and herbicides you so readily spray across your fields. Be well.

by myshpa 3y ago

cyberax 3y ago

> Look into syntropic and natural farming, for example. You clearly don't understand what I'm saying. You can "regenerate" this and "natural" that all you can, but it simply won't work. There is NOT enough naturally fixed nitrogen (and phosphorus) to sustain yields that are needed to feed people. > Farming practices were less advanced, and there was a limited understanding of pest and disease management. The lack of resistant varieties meant that pests and diseases could cause substantial yield losses (potato blight for example). Nope. It's all nitrogen and phosphorus fertilizers. Modern cultivars are also more adapted to utilizing the higher levels of nitrogen, and they just won't thrive with the starvation-era agricultural practices. > I believe we stopped developing new methods Then you're a moron and/or ignorant of what is actually happening.

myshpa 3y ago
> There is NOT enough naturally fixed nitrogen (and phosphorus) to sustain yields that are needed to feed people You're mistaken. https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-farmers-stop-fighting-nature-and-learn-to-embrace-it/ https://news.mongabay.com/2020/07/in-syntropic-agriculture-f... He refused to use artificial fertilizers and pesticides. He let most of the land grow naturally, and on 12 hectares (30 acres) he planted bananas and cocoa, cutting back the surrounding trees regularly. Today, he harvests an average 920 kgs (2,000 lb) of cocoa beans per hectare, more than three times the average across Brazil of 300 kg (660 lb) per hectare. And because he doesn’t spend money on fertilizers and pesticides, unlike the farmers around him, Götsch enjoys higher profits. https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/ https://www.microfarmguide.com/syntropic-farming/ The yield from the system usually equates to and often surpasses that of the conventional counterpart. The other plants grown within the systems result in additional income for the farmer, covering the labor cost. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/organic-farming-yields-and-feeding-the-world-under-climate-change/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/organic-farming-y... Organic agriculture delivers just 5 percent less yield in rain-watered legume crops, such as alfalfa or beans, and in perennial crops, such as fruit trees. But when it comes to major cereal crops, such as corn or wheat, and vegetables, such as broccoli, conventional methods delivered more than 25 percent more yield. Organic farmers should use best management practices, supply more organic fertilizers or grow legumes or perennial crops. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13593-023-00884-x?code=adafbffd-0e92-4903-94fb-77bda6ead50e https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13593-023-00884-x... Natural farming improves crop yield in SE India when compared to conventional or organic systems by enhancing soil quality https://www.nature.com/articles/nature11069 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature11069 with good management practices, particular crop types and growing conditions—organic systems can thus nearly match conventional yields https://www.motherearthnews.com/sustainable-living/nature-and-environment/masanobu-fukuoka-zmaz82jazgoe/ https://www.motherearthnews.com/sustainable-living/nature-an... Yet his acres consistently produce harvests that equal or surpass those of his neighbors who use labor-intensive, chemical-dependent methods. Fukuoka’s system of farming is amazing not only for its yields, but also for the fact that he has not plowed his fields for more than 30 years! Nor does he use prepared fertilizer — not even compost — on his land, or weed his rows, or flood his rice paddies. > I wonder, do people really think that all farmers are morons? > You can "regenerate" this and "natural" that all you can, but it simply won't work > Then you're a moron and/or ignorant of what is actually happening. I'm not a farmer, and I just love farmers ;) But I'm aware what's happening, and how destructive "modern" agriculture is. Do you realize the extent to which we have depleted wildlife, insects, and fish populations, and how limited their numbers have become? Do you realize the extent to which we have depleted our soils and how little of them remains? Are you aware what pesticides and herbicides are doing to the wildlife and to our health? Are you aware we're in the overshoot, e.g. consuming and polluting more than what earth can handle, and that with new countries developing the demands will only continue to grow? Are you aware that agriculture, and animal agriculture specifically, is a leading driver of deforestation and biodiversity loss? Are you aware that animal populations have seen 70% reductions just in the last 50 years, insects are 80% gone, seas will be almost empty in 2040's? That we're witnessing the sixth extinction, something that should take apx. 2.8 million years, but we'll manage that in less than 100 years? Are you truly content with the current situation and genuinely believe that what we're doing aligns with the responsibilities of good stewards of the Earth? Are you absolutely certain that, considering the world's population has reached 8 billion, we should continue prioritizing our eating habits over sustainability? Are you aware that we're destroying rainforests to grow and import animal feed? Are you aware that more of the habitable earth is dedicated to animal agriculture than to forests?? Are you aware that livestock make up 62% of the world’s mammal biomass; humans account for 34%; and wild mammals are just 4%? Are you aware that poultry weighs more than twice that of wild birds? https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://xkcd.com/1338/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/ecological-cliff-edge/ Are you really not seeing the need to "regenerate" ? Clearly, you believe that we have to keep doing what we're doing. As a result, you will likely continue to eliminate every living thing around your fields for the remaining few years, until biodiversity collapses, just to maintain your profits. Hope you stay healthy and avoid developing Parkinson's, a fate that has befallen many of your colleagues due to the pesticides and herbicides you so readily spray across your fields. Be well.