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The article misses the biggest reason why batteries (and EVs) are so heavy: it's because the cars themselves are heavy [0]. The article notes "Passenger vehicl

The article misses the biggest reason why batteries (and EVs) are so heavy: it's because the cars themselves are heavy [0]. The article notes "Passenger vehicles already got around 35% heavier between 1980 to 2022" but doesn't note that this is despite the material we make cars out of getting lighter and thinner. Cars have gotten enormous and enormous cars take enormous (and therefore heavy) batteries to get equivalent range out of. [0]: https://qz.com/2154558/big-electric-trucks-and-suvs-are-the-new-gas-guzzlers https://qz.com/2154558/big-electric-trucks-and-suvs-are-the-...

jacquesm 3y ago
This seems a bit similar to the rocket equation.
elmerfud 3y ago
So cars from today are not meaningfully bigger than 1980 and prior. I think people have forgotten how big cars were back then. There may be more SUVs and crossovers but these have fulfilled the role of station wagons and full sized vans. The reason cars have gotten heavier is mandatory safety features. You can simply compare subcompact cars from the different eras and see the change. A subcompact of today is roughly 600lbs heavier than a pinto. Also cars today have more aluminum parts and composite materials. So if they were made the same they would be much much heavier. Safety is good but it's not free in dollars or weight.
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  I was under the impression the bigger weight gains were not so much thanks to safety as they were due to amenities that have become essentials. Things like air conditioning, awd (if you consider it to not be strictly a safety feature), automatic transmissions, larger wheels (though many are now aluminum) and the tires for them, power steering, infotainment systems and their wiring harnesses, sun/moon roofs, bigger/more comfortable seats, etc. But emissions-related things also come to mind, such as catalytic converters, dpf/gpf, improved exhaust systems, longer exhaust piping and larger chambers, def, etc. (I did note that cars are made of lighter materials, such as fiberglass, composites, and aluminum.) Edit: I do think that while the range of vehicle sizes may not have changed too drastically, the probability distribution curve has. Station wagons were never “in” the way SUVs are, sedans are basically on their way out (though the newest “CUVs” are really just sedans with weird profiles and jacked high up), and pickups were not a suburban mainstay.
  - sliken 3y ago
    Standards are rising. Cars today are quieter (more insulation), stiffer (more metal in the body), have traction control, ABS, better brakes, numerous airbags, wider tires, larger interiors, better stereos (more wiring and speakers), more catalytic converts, fuel injections, high pressure fuel pumps, better heat/cooling, etc. Easy to forget how bare cars were in the 1960s, how people tolerated terrible brakes, terrible tires, flexible bodies, crude attempts to minimize the flex problems with canted tires, etc. I've heard that 50 year old cars are often accelerate faster than new, even with 2/3rds the power because of the age, just by using current tires.
    - ComputerGuru 3y ago
      Yeah, I was excluding ABS and traction control because I was only enumerating non-safety features (and including audio systems under infotainment). I’m curious how much weight airbags add – having replaced the modules before, they’re pretty lightweight… though I’m sure the numbers add up. Incidentally, you might be surprised to learn how localized some of these amenities are. In some other countries I lived in or visited, I know of “brand name” dealerships (ok, I’ll call them out, it was Chevrolet) selling cars (the same models available in the states and in Europe!) without ABS as standard – let alone traction control, automatic transmission, or (on other models?) power windows. Edit: this link has an absolutely terrific comparison of tradeoffs involved in lowering vehicle weight, compares ICE to EV weight profiles, and puts the current price per kg of weight saved for ICE vehicles at $5/kg while forecasting that EVs will reach price parity on that metric by 2030. Definitely recommend reading! https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/automotive/electric-vehicle-material-selection-for-chassis-and-suspension-components/ https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/automotive/...
      - sliken 3y ago
        Well safety system are required and do add a fair bit of weight/complexity and a wide range of interconnected systems. For top safety ratings you need a heavy body, reinforced in weird ways, so that even an offset collision results in quite the dance of sacrificial bending, redirecting, and even rotating the engine under the car so it doesn't penetrate the cabin. It also requires quite a few sensors, each of which are on a wiring harness that reaches all over the car including accelerators in the front bumper, explosives in the airbags, explosives in the seat belt retractor, wheel torque, acceleration, and speed sensors. The wiring harness has secondary effects as well, as a critical system it must be protected, numerous mounts, and changes to design for it's routing, protection, and of course access for a human or robot to install the harness. I noticed that in Teslas the a pillars are HUGE compared to what I'm used to in a subaru forester. Numerous suspension pieces are designed to fail in a safe way so a collision doesn't redirect the wheels or engine into the cabin. I do wonder if it's worth it, if all vehicles weighed 25% less, would there be more or less deaths? At least for bikes and pedestrians larger/heavier vehicles have cost lives.

jacquesm 3y ago

This seems a bit similar to the rocket equation.

elmerfud 3y ago

So cars from today are not meaningfully bigger than 1980 and prior. I think people have forgotten how big cars were back then. There may be more SUVs and crossovers but these have fulfilled the role of station wagons and full sized vans. The reason cars have gotten heavier is mandatory safety features. You can simply compare subcompact cars from the different eras and see the change. A subcompact of today is roughly 600lbs heavier than a pinto. Also cars today have more aluminum parts and composite materials. So if they were made the same they would be much much heavier. Safety is good but it's not free in dollars or weight.

ComputerGuru 3y ago
I was under the impression the bigger weight gains were not so much thanks to safety as they were due to amenities that have become essentials. Things like air conditioning, awd (if you consider it to not be strictly a safety feature), automatic transmissions, larger wheels (though many are now aluminum) and the tires for them, power steering, infotainment systems and their wiring harnesses, sun/moon roofs, bigger/more comfortable seats, etc. But emissions-related things also come to mind, such as catalytic converters, dpf/gpf, improved exhaust systems, longer exhaust piping and larger chambers, def, etc. (I did note that cars are made of lighter materials, such as fiberglass, composites, and aluminum.) Edit: I do think that while the range of vehicle sizes may not have changed too drastically, the probability distribution curve has. Station wagons were never “in” the way SUVs are, sedans are basically on their way out (though the newest “CUVs” are really just sedans with weird profiles and jacked high up), and pickups were not a suburban mainstay.
- sliken 3y ago
  Standards are rising. Cars today are quieter (more insulation), stiffer (more metal in the body), have traction control, ABS, better brakes, numerous airbags, wider tires, larger interiors, better stereos (more wiring and speakers), more catalytic converts, fuel injections, high pressure fuel pumps, better heat/cooling, etc. Easy to forget how bare cars were in the 1960s, how people tolerated terrible brakes, terrible tires, flexible bodies, crude attempts to minimize the flex problems with canted tires, etc. I've heard that 50 year old cars are often accelerate faster than new, even with 2/3rds the power because of the age, just by using current tires.
  - ComputerGuru 3y ago
    Yeah, I was excluding ABS and traction control because I was only enumerating non-safety features (and including audio systems under infotainment). I’m curious how much weight airbags add – having replaced the modules before, they’re pretty lightweight… though I’m sure the numbers add up. Incidentally, you might be surprised to learn how localized some of these amenities are. In some other countries I lived in or visited, I know of “brand name” dealerships (ok, I’ll call them out, it was Chevrolet) selling cars (the same models available in the states and in Europe!) without ABS as standard – let alone traction control, automatic transmission, or (on other models?) power windows. Edit: this link has an absolutely terrific comparison of tradeoffs involved in lowering vehicle weight, compares ICE to EV weight profiles, and puts the current price per kg of weight saved for ICE vehicles at $5/kg while forecasting that EVs will reach price parity on that metric by 2030. Definitely recommend reading! https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/automotive/electric-vehicle-material-selection-for-chassis-and-suspension-components/ https://www.lightmetalage.com/news/industry-news/automotive/...
    - sliken 3y ago
      Well safety system are required and do add a fair bit of weight/complexity and a wide range of interconnected systems. For top safety ratings you need a heavy body, reinforced in weird ways, so that even an offset collision results in quite the dance of sacrificial bending, redirecting, and even rotating the engine under the car so it doesn't penetrate the cabin. It also requires quite a few sensors, each of which are on a wiring harness that reaches all over the car including accelerators in the front bumper, explosives in the airbags, explosives in the seat belt retractor, wheel torque, acceleration, and speed sensors. The wiring harness has secondary effects as well, as a critical system it must be protected, numerous mounts, and changes to design for it's routing, protection, and of course access for a human or robot to install the harness. I noticed that in Teslas the a pillars are HUGE compared to what I'm used to in a subaru forester. Numerous suspension pieces are designed to fail in a safe way so a collision doesn't redirect the wheels or engine into the cabin. I do wonder if it's worth it, if all vehicles weighed 25% less, would there be more or less deaths? At least for bikes and pedestrians larger/heavier vehicles have cost lives.