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That’s quite an.. extreme example. Almost sounds like something you’d read on one of those Cold War era red scare posters.

by Cyph0n 3y ago

WalterBright 3y ago
Do you think I'm joking? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor There are many countries, and lots of history. Maybe you could point to an example of getting rid of wealthy people and the lot of everyone else improved?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  > There are many countries, and lots of history. Maybe you could point to an example of getting rid of wealthy people and the lot of everyone else improved? I would argue that you are not talking about getting rid of wealthy people in the same context as those you replied to. This is not about 'class warfare' or 'revolution'. No one is going to the 'killing fields'. This is about changing policy via democratic process that changes incentives and structures that allow this to happen in the first place, not by chopping off the heads of rich people. However, I would argue against 'getting rid of billionaires'. The billionaires aren't the problem -- the inequality is the problem. If we put in place a system that had a 'bottom rung' which was high enough from poverty then it wouldn't matter.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > This is about changing policy via democratic process that changes incentives and structures that allow this to happen in the first place, not by chopping off the heads of rich people. What do you propose get changed? A cap on how much you can make? A cap on where you can invest? A cap on how you can spend?
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      I don't propose anything. Please read the comments above me to understand the context of my reply.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Cyph0n 3y ago
  I am aware of the examples you were referring to. My point is that your examples are extreme given the context of the discussion. So far, the discussion has been focused solely on executive pay: nobody is talking about the proletariat tearing down capitalism. As far as examples go, there are countless instances of revolutions - esp. those targeting monarchies - that brought clear, long-term (relative) prosperity to the average citizen.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Getting rid of the king is not the same thing at all as getting rid of the wealthy people. The American Revolution was the wealthy people getting rid of the king. Prosperity resulted. In the French Revolution, the poor people got rid of the king and the wealthy people. I invite you to look at the result. Spoiler: lots and lots and lots of dead ordinary folkses. Elon Musk isn't the king of anything. He can't order you to kiss his ring.
andsoitis 3y ago
> That’s quite an.. extreme example. At least it is an example. What would be a positive example?
- Cyph0n 3y ago
  If the example is "cut CEO pay, and you might end up with a repeat of the Cambodian genocide", I'd rather have no example at all.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    Didn't Bernie Sanders say there shouldn't be any billionaires? How do you propose to do that? Elizabeth Warren wants to confiscate 6% of billionaires' net worth every year. https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/ultra-millionaire-tax https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/ultra-millionaire-tax No country has ever prospered by getting rid of rich people.
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      I think we need to define 'prosper' before making that statement. What does that mean and who are we talking about? Imperial Spain 'prospered' but at the expense of a large portion of the world's population become enslaved, and then the kingdom itself did not endure. Which examples of prosperity exist outside of colonialism? If only a small population prospers at the expense of the rest of the world, is that a win? If not, then if something has never existed then how can you claim that it cannot happen by changing the status quo?
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        > I think we need to define 'prosper' before making that statement. Things go off the rails when devolving into debating the meaning what common and well understood words like prosperity. You and I both know what it means. As for Spain, they didn't prosper much from colonialism. The reason is they stripped the New World of gold and silver, shipping it to Spain. The result was not prosperity, but inflation. > prospers at the expense of That's not how markets work. That's how theft, looting and confiscation work. Ironically, confiscation is what is proposed here.

That’s quite an.. extreme example. Almost sounds like something you’d read on one of those Cold War era red scare posters.

by Cyph0n 3y ago

That’s quite an.. extreme example. Almost sounds like something you’d read on one of those Cold War era red scare posters.

WalterBright 3y ago

Do you think I'm joking? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_Fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor There are many countries, and lots of history. Maybe you could point to an example of getting rid of wealthy people and the lot of everyone else improved?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Eisenstein 3y ago
> There are many countries, and lots of history. Maybe you could point to an example of getting rid of wealthy people and the lot of everyone else improved? I would argue that you are not talking about getting rid of wealthy people in the same context as those you replied to. This is not about 'class warfare' or 'revolution'. No one is going to the 'killing fields'. This is about changing policy via democratic process that changes incentives and structures that allow this to happen in the first place, not by chopping off the heads of rich people. However, I would argue against 'getting rid of billionaires'. The billionaires aren't the problem -- the inequality is the problem. If we put in place a system that had a 'bottom rung' which was high enough from poverty then it wouldn't matter.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > This is about changing policy via democratic process that changes incentives and structures that allow this to happen in the first place, not by chopping off the heads of rich people. What do you propose get changed? A cap on how much you can make? A cap on where you can invest? A cap on how you can spend?
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    I don't propose anything. Please read the comments above me to understand the context of my reply.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Cyph0n 3y ago
I am aware of the examples you were referring to. My point is that your examples are extreme given the context of the discussion. So far, the discussion has been focused solely on executive pay: nobody is talking about the proletariat tearing down capitalism. As far as examples go, there are countless instances of revolutions - esp. those targeting monarchies - that brought clear, long-term (relative) prosperity to the average citizen.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Getting rid of the king is not the same thing at all as getting rid of the wealthy people. The American Revolution was the wealthy people getting rid of the king. Prosperity resulted. In the French Revolution, the poor people got rid of the king and the wealthy people. I invite you to look at the result. Spoiler: lots and lots and lots of dead ordinary folkses. Elon Musk isn't the king of anything. He can't order you to kiss his ring.

andsoitis 3y ago

> That’s quite an.. extreme example. At least it is an example. What would be a positive example?

Cyph0n 3y ago
If the example is "cut CEO pay, and you might end up with a repeat of the Cambodian genocide", I'd rather have no example at all.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Didn't Bernie Sanders say there shouldn't be any billionaires? How do you propose to do that? Elizabeth Warren wants to confiscate 6% of billionaires' net worth every year. https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/ultra-millionaire-tax https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/ultra-millionaire-tax No country has ever prospered by getting rid of rich people.
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    I think we need to define 'prosper' before making that statement. What does that mean and who are we talking about? Imperial Spain 'prospered' but at the expense of a large portion of the world's population become enslaved, and then the kingdom itself did not endure. Which examples of prosperity exist outside of colonialism? If only a small population prospers at the expense of the rest of the world, is that a win? If not, then if something has never existed then how can you claim that it cannot happen by changing the status quo?
    - WalterBright 3y ago
      > I think we need to define 'prosper' before making that statement. Things go off the rails when devolving into debating the meaning what common and well understood words like prosperity. You and I both know what it means. As for Spain, they didn't prosper much from colonialism. The reason is they stripped the New World of gold and silver, shipping it to Spain. The result was not prosperity, but inflation. > prospers at the expense of That's not how markets work. That's how theft, looting and confiscation work. Ironically, confiscation is what is proposed here.