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These stats are so meaningless. American big tech workers make literally tens to hundreds of thousands of times more than poor Africans. Ok, what are we going

These stats are so meaningless. American big tech workers make literally tens to hundreds of thousands of times more than poor Africans. Ok, what are we going to do about it? Of course, someone will respond moving the goal posts about how it’s different. Turns out when you’re the one making too much money it doesn’t matter or count, which is, funny enough, the same thing these health care CEOs would say. Unlike many hypocrites I have absolutely no problem making thousands more than the global poor and the global rich making more than me either. It is what it is. I can make hundreds of thousands more while still hoping and contributing to raising the floor in quality of life. Not impose meaningless arbitrary income limits. People think this line of thinking is to shut down discussion, but there’s no discussion to be had to begin with. Shall we make everyone have the same wage? No? What’s the actual proposal here? None.

nerdponx 3y ago
That sucks too, but it's a different issue.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  How is it different? If you believe it’s bad for certain individuals to have too much money then there’s a very long tail here.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    It’s different because of roads and infrastructure.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    Many reasons, but if you're going to whatabout this aggressively it's not worth arguing. But chiefly because African poverty isn't closely related to inflation in the West, while corporate profits are, and are possibly causal for it. You're recasting this as "they have too much money!!" But that's obviously not the problem and it's just bad faith to claim that it is. If you want to get riled up, get riled up over the idea that maybe the same people responsible for poverty in the Global South are also responsible for inflation in the West. Or you can try to deflect on any related issues in the hope that you never have to worry about it, your choice. Edit: you added this and I found it particularly ridiculous. > no problem making thousands more than the global poor and the global rich making more than me either. It is what it is. Great, so let other people who care do their thing. Do you expect someone making $100k a year to give it all away to some random family with less money? That's an individual act of heroism, but it doesn't make a dent in the problem on a bigger scale. Also let's be clear: I for one don't care that some people are rich, I care that some people are poor. If one person's richness is a cause for the other's poverty, then it's a problem. > Not impose meaningless arbitrary income limits. Who is? You might not be aware, but a large number of people in the US and Canada are struggling financially right now due to inflation. So when someone else seems to be making increasing profits at the same time as they're raising those prices, you start to wonder about the causes. This isn't some Harrison Bergeron situation, it's about actually trying to solve problems. If you are content with your life then stay out of the way of the people who want to make things better.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      > If you want to get riled up, get riled up over the idea that maybe the same people responsible for poverty in the Global South are also responsible for inflation in the West. What is the connection and who are these people?
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    give their money to africa then! I’d vastly prefer that over vacation homes and private jets! I whole heartedly support the immediate seizure of this specific asset class with all proceeds going to the people of africa!
morby 3y ago
You’re comparing workers in two vastly different markets to workers in the same market. In the US, wages for one class of employee have exploded as wages for the rest have stagnated.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Irrelevant and ultimately arbitrary distinction. Is it bad for certain people to have too much money or not? Consider that Americans waste more energy and generate more greenhouse gasses that citizens in other, lower emitting countries pay for - we are all on the same planet. Ultimately these discussions devolve to people just being bitter others having more than them.
  - skyyler 3y ago
    I'm actually incredibly concerned that the people that make sandwiches for me can't afford rent. I can't speak for everyone, but I"m pretty sure most people do care about those with less than them.
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      I am incredibly concerned that people that make sandwiches for me can’t afford basic healthcare or stay home if they home a stomach flu.
    - robswc 3y ago
      Why do people take such low pay for making sandwiches? Genuine question, because doesn't that just lower wages for everyone and sorta peg the value of a sandwich maker to being $X/hr?
      - skyyler 3y ago
        Work or starve. Plenty of desperate people willing to do whatever jobs they can right now. Not a lot of time to train for more lucrative work, let alone find it.
  - 3y ago
baron816 3y ago
How much does a nurse deserve make? Or a home health worker? Or a waiter? Or a teacher? Or a software engineer? Or a business executive? I’m not prepared to put a dollar amount on what anyone deserves to make, and neither are any of you. The thing with capitalism is that there isn’t someone going around trying to set prices for things based off some moral philosophy. Prices and wages are based on what people are willing to pay.
- spamizbad 3y ago
  Sounds like we have a healthcare CEO shortage then because the market is paying an exorbitant amount for something that doesn’t need to be as scarce. With that aside, I suspect (and many other commenters here as well) that there’s price fixing involved in executive pay, creating an artificial floor that insulates from the effects of the labor market
  - srackey 3y ago
    Of course we have a shortage of CEOs or can manage large organizations efficiently. Just like we also have a shortage of NFL quarterbacks or MLB pitchers. Healthcare CEO pay is in-line with executive pay of similarly sized firms. Simply put, senior management of large corporations is a skill few have, and even fewer are willing to take the responsibility and stress of.
  - foooobaba 3y ago
    It it’s so easy to be a healthcare CEO, then go ahead and fill in, you can get some millions.
  - BenisMaximus 3y ago
    Man how crazy would it be if the guys who decide CEO compensation were in on it too?
    - paulmd 3y ago
      What would be even crazier is if it was actually the same guys! Haha that would never happen tho
qbasic_forever 3y ago
I agree, and to solve this problem I say we nationalize and socialize healthcare to provide it to all citizens free of cost just as they do in many African and other countries. This will remove the need to have any healthcare CEOs entirely.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > This will remove the need to have any healthcare CEOs entirely. So you're saying we don't need pharmaceutical companies on earth?
  - qbasic_forever 3y ago
    Nope, I'm saying pharmaceutical companies don't need to be capitalist and profit driven.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      OK, but they still need to be run by someone, no?
aaronblohowiak 3y ago
>I can make hundreds of thousands more while still hoping and contributing to raising the floor in quality of life. I used to believe this too. Sadly the statistics suggest this is no longer happening and millennials as a generation are the first to be worse off than their parents, with rising income inequality being a driving factor. Robert reichs class is available for free on YouTube, interesting stats to follow to help entertain other perspectives.
- check89 3y ago
  Robert Reich is a far-left hack who claimed that "a libertarian vision of an uncontrolled internet [is] the dream of every dictator, strongman and demagogue". [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20220412104542/https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/12/elon-musk-internet-twitter http://web.archive.org/web/20220412104542/https://www.thegua...
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Global inequality is actually decreasing (potentially at the expense of Americans).
  - aaronblohowiak 3y ago
    Sadly this is looking more and more like the rich countries becoming more like poor countries in terms of income distribution within country than the poor countries looking more like the rich countries, though likely some kind of meeting in the middle ( still a bad outcome if you are interested in rising standards of living for poor globally)
    - njarboe 3y ago
      This is not really true. China has seen a dramatic rise in wealth spread over much of the population with the rest of SE Asia seeing a smaller but dramatic per capital growth over the last 3 decades. India is also seeing huge improvements. Here is a good study to look at[1]. [1]https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-insights-into-the-distribution-of-world-income/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-insights-into-the-dis...
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Agreed. These articles use a mix of greed, envy, and wrath. It's always, "a good thing happened to someone while a bad thing was happening to someone else!"
mcdonje 3y ago
Your argument is that nothing should be done about the absurd gains of the vertical part of a parieto distribution because differences in the long tail of the horizontal part exist.
BenisMaximus 3y ago
Do you think that private schools create inequity? Would you send your children to public school?
Lutger 3y ago
You may find it hard to believe, but some people care about the inequality with the global South too.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
I thought for a while now that the healthcare industry should have the highest profit margins in a properly functioning economy. Surely saving lives should be rewarded more than serving ads or reality television. It seems like the common thought is that goods and services that are the most valuable should have the least rewards and incentives for people to produce, when in fact we should incentivize them the most. For the economically-minded folks out there, there's a difference between profit incentives and total cost. Ideally the economic system would be set up to drive cost of goods down in general.
- maxerickson 3y ago
  Insurance should be a miserable business to be in though. It's providing a straightforward financial service.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Agreed. Current insurance companies have profit margins caps by regulation. This is actually an incentive to drive up healthcare costs because 5% of $200 is more than 5% of $100. I'm curious what barriers there are to prevent a company coming in offering insurance at 1% profit and undercutting the competition
- lowbloodsugar 3y ago
  In your world, the healthcare industry should have the highest profit margins because it saves lives. But in the real world, the healthcare industry has the highest profit margins because it lets people suffer and die. How did we get here? What is more important than your life! Hey, you're bleeding out right now! Sign this contract where you pay me everything or we won't treat you. Capitalism only works if you have the option of shopping around, if there is competition. If you're dying, then the first ambulance to reach you get to charge you whatever they like - and they do. And they can take you to an ER where doctors can charge whatever they like - and they do. So, hey, let's introduce insurance! Now, the purchase decision is separated from the crisis. Except the goal of the insurance CEO is to maximize profit. No different than any other business. And they do that by not paying for things. Denied. Denied. Denied. And if they can't deny, then they can insist on cost caps. And of course, the ambulance and ER doctors don't like caps, and so they all leave the "network", and can charge you what they want. And they do! And the insurance CEOs don't like that and so they say that if you use an out-of-network doctor then they don't cover you, or they cover you even less. And they pay Trump and Republicans money to pass a law that says, actually they can sell you insurance that doesn't cover anything (if you read the fine print)! So then maybe you decide that you need a single payer system like the UK, but then the rich people decide that they don't want to pay for the poor people, so they pay the government officials (or they are the government officials) to cut spending and cut spending and now no doctor wants to be a doctor and they can do quite well in a private system or leaving the country. I think the fundamental problem with your statement is that there is no such thing as a "properly functioning economy". There is only human greed, tribalism and psychopathy. Have a great weekend!
didibus 3y ago
> Of course, someone will respond moving the goal posts about how it’s different It's very different though, we're talking about either workers under the same company, or citizens within the same country. Both of which have social contracts binding the people within those organizations. If you're working for one of these companies, it's your potential comp going to that CEO. You've also contributed to that income with your work at the company. There's more entitlement and reason to feel like the CEO isn't pulling in the weight of it's comp. That you're not getting the same comp to value ratio. That you could do better or just as good a job as them, etc. Similarly, as a citizen, you might feel they're not producing value to society proportional to their wealth. That they're not paying their fair share, etc. If some poor person in Africa had also entered in a similar social contract, they'd have similar rights to complain about your big tech salary relative to theirs. And you might be more concerned about it as well, you might be asking for better social welfare or free healthcare for example, to help them out. Or discuss changes to tax brackets. Etc.
- junofan 3y ago
  > it's your potential comp going to that CEO I mean not really if you’re a labor market participant. Maybe there’s an argument to be made if you’re talking about profit sharing.
  - didibus 3y ago
    I'm talking about when you work for the same company as the CEO. Your comp and theirs has to come out the same available budget.
abhayhegde 3y ago
> Unlike many hypocrites I have absolutely no problem making thousands more than the global poor and the global rich making more than me either. It is what it is. Good for you. I believe that's a privilege one has to be able to throw hands and say "it really is what it is". That's totally alright if one is aware that it's a privilege. I assume no malice over your comment, but to even discourage discussion on wealth inequality is awful.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Right, it's not alright specifically because they're not only saying "I'm financially comfortable and I don't care if other people aren't", they're saying "you shouldn't care either and we should all stop talking about it, aren't I mature?" Seems antisocial to me.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Wealth inequality is not an issue. Repeat after me: it’s not an issue. There are, however actual quality of life issues to be resolved and discussed. Trying to take things from people to make things right has never worked, ever. Including the infamous French Revolution.
libraryatnight 3y ago
Ah yes this old callous ignorant BS. Get off the internet and go out into the world and talk to your fellow citizens outside your income bracket and stop abstracting things to a point where you feel comfy missing the point.

nerdponx 3y ago

That sucks too, but it's a different issue.

endisneigh 3y ago
How is it different? If you believe it’s bad for certain individuals to have too much money then there’s a very long tail here.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  It’s different because of roads and infrastructure.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Many reasons, but if you're going to whatabout this aggressively it's not worth arguing. But chiefly because African poverty isn't closely related to inflation in the West, while corporate profits are, and are possibly causal for it. You're recasting this as "they have too much money!!" But that's obviously not the problem and it's just bad faith to claim that it is. If you want to get riled up, get riled up over the idea that maybe the same people responsible for poverty in the Global South are also responsible for inflation in the West. Or you can try to deflect on any related issues in the hope that you never have to worry about it, your choice. Edit: you added this and I found it particularly ridiculous. > no problem making thousands more than the global poor and the global rich making more than me either. It is what it is. Great, so let other people who care do their thing. Do you expect someone making $100k a year to give it all away to some random family with less money? That's an individual act of heroism, but it doesn't make a dent in the problem on a bigger scale. Also let's be clear: I for one don't care that some people are rich, I care that some people are poor. If one person's richness is a cause for the other's poverty, then it's a problem. > Not impose meaningless arbitrary income limits. Who is? You might not be aware, but a large number of people in the US and Canada are struggling financially right now due to inflation. So when someone else seems to be making increasing profits at the same time as they're raising those prices, you start to wonder about the causes. This isn't some Harrison Bergeron situation, it's about actually trying to solve problems. If you are content with your life then stay out of the way of the people who want to make things better.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > If you want to get riled up, get riled up over the idea that maybe the same people responsible for poverty in the Global South are also responsible for inflation in the West. What is the connection and who are these people?
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  give their money to africa then! I’d vastly prefer that over vacation homes and private jets! I whole heartedly support the immediate seizure of this specific asset class with all proceeds going to the people of africa!

morby 3y ago

You’re comparing workers in two vastly different markets to workers in the same market. In the US, wages for one class of employee have exploded as wages for the rest have stagnated.

endisneigh 3y ago
Irrelevant and ultimately arbitrary distinction. Is it bad for certain people to have too much money or not? Consider that Americans waste more energy and generate more greenhouse gasses that citizens in other, lower emitting countries pay for - we are all on the same planet. Ultimately these discussions devolve to people just being bitter others having more than them.
- skyyler 3y ago
  I'm actually incredibly concerned that the people that make sandwiches for me can't afford rent. I can't speak for everyone, but I"m pretty sure most people do care about those with less than them.
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    I am incredibly concerned that people that make sandwiches for me can’t afford basic healthcare or stay home if they home a stomach flu.
  - robswc 3y ago
    Why do people take such low pay for making sandwiches? Genuine question, because doesn't that just lower wages for everyone and sorta peg the value of a sandwich maker to being $X/hr?
    - skyyler 3y ago
      Work or starve. Plenty of desperate people willing to do whatever jobs they can right now. Not a lot of time to train for more lucrative work, let alone find it.
- 3y ago

baron816 3y ago

How much does a nurse deserve make? Or a home health worker? Or a waiter? Or a teacher? Or a software engineer? Or a business executive? I’m not prepared to put a dollar amount on what anyone deserves to make, and neither are any of you. The thing with capitalism is that there isn’t someone going around trying to set prices for things based off some moral philosophy. Prices and wages are based on what people are willing to pay.

spamizbad 3y ago
Sounds like we have a healthcare CEO shortage then because the market is paying an exorbitant amount for something that doesn’t need to be as scarce. With that aside, I suspect (and many other commenters here as well) that there’s price fixing involved in executive pay, creating an artificial floor that insulates from the effects of the labor market
- srackey 3y ago
  Of course we have a shortage of CEOs or can manage large organizations efficiently. Just like we also have a shortage of NFL quarterbacks or MLB pitchers. Healthcare CEO pay is in-line with executive pay of similarly sized firms. Simply put, senior management of large corporations is a skill few have, and even fewer are willing to take the responsibility and stress of.
- foooobaba 3y ago
  It it’s so easy to be a healthcare CEO, then go ahead and fill in, you can get some millions.
- BenisMaximus 3y ago
  Man how crazy would it be if the guys who decide CEO compensation were in on it too?
  - paulmd 3y ago
    What would be even crazier is if it was actually the same guys! Haha that would never happen tho

qbasic_forever 3y ago

I agree, and to solve this problem I say we nationalize and socialize healthcare to provide it to all citizens free of cost just as they do in many African and other countries. This will remove the need to have any healthcare CEOs entirely.

andsoitis 3y ago
> This will remove the need to have any healthcare CEOs entirely. So you're saying we don't need pharmaceutical companies on earth?
- qbasic_forever 3y ago
  Nope, I'm saying pharmaceutical companies don't need to be capitalist and profit driven.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    OK, but they still need to be run by someone, no?

aaronblohowiak 3y ago

>I can make hundreds of thousands more while still hoping and contributing to raising the floor in quality of life. I used to believe this too. Sadly the statistics suggest this is no longer happening and millennials as a generation are the first to be worse off than their parents, with rising income inequality being a driving factor. Robert reichs class is available for free on YouTube, interesting stats to follow to help entertain other perspectives.

check89 3y ago
Robert Reich is a far-left hack who claimed that "a libertarian vision of an uncontrolled internet [is] the dream of every dictator, strongman and demagogue". [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20220412104542/https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/12/elon-musk-internet-twitter http://web.archive.org/web/20220412104542/https://www.thegua...
endisneigh 3y ago
Global inequality is actually decreasing (potentially at the expense of Americans).
- aaronblohowiak 3y ago
  Sadly this is looking more and more like the rich countries becoming more like poor countries in terms of income distribution within country than the poor countries looking more like the rich countries, though likely some kind of meeting in the middle ( still a bad outcome if you are interested in rising standards of living for poor globally)
  - njarboe 3y ago
    This is not really true. China has seen a dramatic rise in wealth spread over much of the population with the rest of SE Asia seeing a smaller but dramatic per capital growth over the last 3 decades. India is also seeing huge improvements. Here is a good study to look at[1]. [1]https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-insights-into-the-distribution-of-world-income/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-insights-into-the-dis...

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

Agreed. These articles use a mix of greed, envy, and wrath. It's always, "a good thing happened to someone while a bad thing was happening to someone else!"

mcdonje 3y ago

Your argument is that nothing should be done about the absurd gains of the vertical part of a parieto distribution because differences in the long tail of the horizontal part exist.

BenisMaximus 3y ago

Do you think that private schools create inequity? Would you send your children to public school?

Lutger 3y ago

You may find it hard to believe, but some people care about the inequality with the global South too.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

I thought for a while now that the healthcare industry should have the highest profit margins in a properly functioning economy. Surely saving lives should be rewarded more than serving ads or reality television. It seems like the common thought is that goods and services that are the most valuable should have the least rewards and incentives for people to produce, when in fact we should incentivize them the most. For the economically-minded folks out there, there's a difference between profit incentives and total cost. Ideally the economic system would be set up to drive cost of goods down in general.

maxerickson 3y ago
Insurance should be a miserable business to be in though. It's providing a straightforward financial service.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Agreed. Current insurance companies have profit margins caps by regulation. This is actually an incentive to drive up healthcare costs because 5% of $200 is more than 5% of $100. I'm curious what barriers there are to prevent a company coming in offering insurance at 1% profit and undercutting the competition
lowbloodsugar 3y ago
In your world, the healthcare industry should have the highest profit margins because it saves lives. But in the real world, the healthcare industry has the highest profit margins because it lets people suffer and die. How did we get here? What is more important than your life! Hey, you're bleeding out right now! Sign this contract where you pay me everything or we won't treat you. Capitalism only works if you have the option of shopping around, if there is competition. If you're dying, then the first ambulance to reach you get to charge you whatever they like - and they do. And they can take you to an ER where doctors can charge whatever they like - and they do. So, hey, let's introduce insurance! Now, the purchase decision is separated from the crisis. Except the goal of the insurance CEO is to maximize profit. No different than any other business. And they do that by not paying for things. Denied. Denied. Denied. And if they can't deny, then they can insist on cost caps. And of course, the ambulance and ER doctors don't like caps, and so they all leave the "network", and can charge you what they want. And they do! And the insurance CEOs don't like that and so they say that if you use an out-of-network doctor then they don't cover you, or they cover you even less. And they pay Trump and Republicans money to pass a law that says, actually they can sell you insurance that doesn't cover anything (if you read the fine print)! So then maybe you decide that you need a single payer system like the UK, but then the rich people decide that they don't want to pay for the poor people, so they pay the government officials (or they are the government officials) to cut spending and cut spending and now no doctor wants to be a doctor and they can do quite well in a private system or leaving the country. I think the fundamental problem with your statement is that there is no such thing as a "properly functioning economy". There is only human greed, tribalism and psychopathy. Have a great weekend!

didibus 3y ago

> Of course, someone will respond moving the goal posts about how it’s different It's very different though, we're talking about either workers under the same company, or citizens within the same country. Both of which have social contracts binding the people within those organizations. If you're working for one of these companies, it's your potential comp going to that CEO. You've also contributed to that income with your work at the company. There's more entitlement and reason to feel like the CEO isn't pulling in the weight of it's comp. That you're not getting the same comp to value ratio. That you could do better or just as good a job as them, etc. Similarly, as a citizen, you might feel they're not producing value to society proportional to their wealth. That they're not paying their fair share, etc. If some poor person in Africa had also entered in a similar social contract, they'd have similar rights to complain about your big tech salary relative to theirs. And you might be more concerned about it as well, you might be asking for better social welfare or free healthcare for example, to help them out. Or discuss changes to tax brackets. Etc.

junofan 3y ago
> it's your potential comp going to that CEO I mean not really if you’re a labor market participant. Maybe there’s an argument to be made if you’re talking about profit sharing.
- didibus 3y ago
  I'm talking about when you work for the same company as the CEO. Your comp and theirs has to come out the same available budget.

abhayhegde 3y ago

> Unlike many hypocrites I have absolutely no problem making thousands more than the global poor and the global rich making more than me either. It is what it is. Good for you. I believe that's a privilege one has to be able to throw hands and say "it really is what it is". That's totally alright if one is aware that it's a privilege. I assume no malice over your comment, but to even discourage discussion on wealth inequality is awful.

nerdponx 3y ago
Right, it's not alright specifically because they're not only saying "I'm financially comfortable and I don't care if other people aren't", they're saying "you shouldn't care either and we should all stop talking about it, aren't I mature?" Seems antisocial to me.
endisneigh 3y ago
Wealth inequality is not an issue. Repeat after me: it’s not an issue. There are, however actual quality of life issues to be resolved and discussed. Trying to take things from people to make things right has never worked, ever. Including the infamous French Revolution.

libraryatnight 3y ago

Ah yes this old callous ignorant BS. Get off the internet and go out into the world and talk to your fellow citizens outside your income bracket and stop abstracting things to a point where you feel comfy missing the point.