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There are many musical traditions which evolved completely orthogonal to [western] music theory. That such traditions can exist and have performers who express

There are many musical traditions which evolved completely orthogonal to [western] music theory. That such traditions can exist and have performers who express virtuosity contradicts the claim that all 'riffs' originate with [western] music theory.

ksaj 3y ago
They still have theory. I have an amazing book on playing Rajas. But if I played them right now, it would sound more like messed up blues because I haven't learned that aspect of how to play Raja music correctly, and only by coincidence the blues pentatonic scale is similar. I have an idea what Raja sounds like, but that's rather incomplete knowledge of the associated music theory. Applying the wrong theory produces the wrong sound. Enough evidence that there is theory in all forms of music. You might be right about a certain western bias toward [western] theory, but it has no bearing on theory in general. Especially how it applies to each culture's distinct music. The same bias appears in the other direction, because Indians regularly say they think Western music sounds out of tune and lacking expression. I don't think anybody brought that up as an issue though. The difference, pertaining to this thread, is understanding music, versus merely aping riffs you learned from your heroes, with no regard to the underlying music and how things that fit, fit.
- solomonb 3y ago
  Okay so we can generalize to music theory outside of the western canon but then aren't we also allowing in "the theory of the music made by not learning western theory but rather by listening to lou reed riffs and copying his hand movements"? At this point everyone can have their own music theory and the argument that musicians need to learn theory seems a little vacuous? Or do you draw the line at certain branches of established theory greater then just the western canon? For the record I am very much in favor of musicians learning music theory (of whatever sort). However it seems odd to say that a musician can not learn music without first learning theory. Did we have music theory before musicians? Perhaps you can make the case that given the systemic biases in our modern taste for music it is _hard_ to break away from modern music theory, but that doesn't make it impossible. See the extended technique of Fred Frith, John Zorn, Bob Ostertag, Derek Bailey, Ikue Mori, etc as an example.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    > However it seems odd to say that a musician can not learn music without first learning theory. Except nobody said that ? Just that by learning theory you will learn faster than reverse engineering the songs you like into bases components (conciously or not). And, well, nothing stops anyone from learning more than just western music theory > Did we have music theory before musicians? We had engineering before engineers but we come to conclusion teaching someone to build bridge is far more effective than letting them stumble till they work out the basics...
    - solomonb 3y ago
      > Except nobody said that ? Ksaj claimed that a musician who learned to make music without music theory will inevitably end up producing music which is actually derivative of the music of someone else who did study theory. I reject that claim. > We had engineering before engineers but we come to conclusion teaching someone to build bridge is far more effective than letting them stumble till they work out the basics... I do not think you can reasonably compare something as subject as music with mechanical engineering. Yes you can make music which has as much structure as the Golden Gate bridge but no that is not the only way to make music.

ksaj 3y ago

They still have theory. I have an amazing book on playing Rajas. But if I played them right now, it would sound more like messed up blues because I haven't learned that aspect of how to play Raja music correctly, and only by coincidence the blues pentatonic scale is similar. I have an idea what Raja sounds like, but that's rather incomplete knowledge of the associated music theory. Applying the wrong theory produces the wrong sound. Enough evidence that there is theory in all forms of music. You might be right about a certain western bias toward [western] theory, but it has no bearing on theory in general. Especially how it applies to each culture's distinct music. The same bias appears in the other direction, because Indians regularly say they think Western music sounds out of tune and lacking expression. I don't think anybody brought that up as an issue though. The difference, pertaining to this thread, is understanding music, versus merely aping riffs you learned from your heroes, with no regard to the underlying music and how things that fit, fit.

solomonb 3y ago
Okay so we can generalize to music theory outside of the western canon but then aren't we also allowing in "the theory of the music made by not learning western theory but rather by listening to lou reed riffs and copying his hand movements"? At this point everyone can have their own music theory and the argument that musicians need to learn theory seems a little vacuous? Or do you draw the line at certain branches of established theory greater then just the western canon? For the record I am very much in favor of musicians learning music theory (of whatever sort). However it seems odd to say that a musician can not learn music without first learning theory. Did we have music theory before musicians? Perhaps you can make the case that given the systemic biases in our modern taste for music it is _hard_ to break away from modern music theory, but that doesn't make it impossible. See the extended technique of Fred Frith, John Zorn, Bob Ostertag, Derek Bailey, Ikue Mori, etc as an example.
- ilyt 3y ago
  > However it seems odd to say that a musician can not learn music without first learning theory. Except nobody said that ? Just that by learning theory you will learn faster than reverse engineering the songs you like into bases components (conciously or not). And, well, nothing stops anyone from learning more than just western music theory > Did we have music theory before musicians? We had engineering before engineers but we come to conclusion teaching someone to build bridge is far more effective than letting them stumble till they work out the basics...
  - solomonb 3y ago
    > Except nobody said that ? Ksaj claimed that a musician who learned to make music without music theory will inevitably end up producing music which is actually derivative of the music of someone else who did study theory. I reject that claim. > We had engineering before engineers but we come to conclusion teaching someone to build bridge is far more effective than letting them stumble till they work out the basics... I do not think you can reasonably compare something as subject as music with mechanical engineering. Yes you can make music which has as much structure as the Golden Gate bridge but no that is not the only way to make music.