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FISA 702 is not a criminal authority. It’s used in cases of foreign surveillance, cyber attacks, terrorism, and espionage. “Convictions” and “evidence” are not

FISA 702 is not a criminal authority. It’s used in cases of foreign surveillance, cyber attacks, terrorism, and espionage. “Convictions” and “evidence” are not the right words, “intelligence” is.

Zigurd 3y ago
The FBI is a law enforcement agency. Cyber attacks are crimes. Terrorism is a crime. Spying is a crime. Where are the indictments and convictions that depend on FISA 702?
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > The FBI is a law enforcement agency. Cyber attacks are crimes. Terrorism is a crime. Spying is a crime. Where are the indictments and convictions that depend on FISA 702? The FBI is principally a national security and counterintelligence agency and secondarily a law enforcement agency. 702 is expressly for the counterintelligence and national security function, limited to foreign targets (non-US persons believed to be outside of the US), and if used properly will only incidentally and occasionally result in information related to persons practically able to be subjected to US law enforcement jurisdiction, whether or not they might in theory be committing US crimes. Lots of indictments or other criminal process tied to 702 surveillance would actually be a sign of something unusual happening (of which “abuse of 702 for purposes at odds with its express terms” would be high on the list.)
- ritwikgupta 3y ago
  No, this is a misconception. The FBI is not just a law enforcement agency. It is also an intelligence agency.
  - Quillbert182 3y ago
    It shouldn't be.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      The reason to have a counterintelligence agency (which is the role the FBI has in the intelligence community) also be a law enforcement agency is somewhat obvious; domestic law enforcement, at least in that domain, is essential to counterintelligence. (I suppose there is an argument that the counterintelligence agency shouldn't be a broad spectrum law enforcement agency, but I actually think the dangers of an isolated, insular, counterintelligence agency and the kind of culture it would naturally breed would be a bigger problem.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  Careful, that logic cuts both ways-- you're inadvertently arguing that 702 isn't really doing much of anything. So there's no harm in continuing it, right? It's about Intelligence, not Evidence. Intelligence (like anonymous tips) is what you use to find the Evidence, which is what you reference in the affidavit. Much Intelligence is speculative and/or bullshit and wastes everybody's time. Publishing Intelligence tips off associates of the adversary and betrays what you know and what your capabilities are, and possibly who you learned it from.
  - hypothesis 3y ago
    > you're inadvertently arguing that 702 isn't really doing much of anything. So there's no harm in continuing it, right? One would assume that a useless programs should be discontinued, simply because it’s not free to continue them.

Zigurd 3y ago

The FBI is a law enforcement agency. Cyber attacks are crimes. Terrorism is a crime. Spying is a crime. Where are the indictments and convictions that depend on FISA 702?

dragonwriter 3y ago
> The FBI is a law enforcement agency. Cyber attacks are crimes. Terrorism is a crime. Spying is a crime. Where are the indictments and convictions that depend on FISA 702? The FBI is principally a national security and counterintelligence agency and secondarily a law enforcement agency. 702 is expressly for the counterintelligence and national security function, limited to foreign targets (non-US persons believed to be outside of the US), and if used properly will only incidentally and occasionally result in information related to persons practically able to be subjected to US law enforcement jurisdiction, whether or not they might in theory be committing US crimes. Lots of indictments or other criminal process tied to 702 surveillance would actually be a sign of something unusual happening (of which “abuse of 702 for purposes at odds with its express terms” would be high on the list.)
ritwikgupta 3y ago
No, this is a misconception. The FBI is not just a law enforcement agency. It is also an intelligence agency.
- Quillbert182 3y ago
  It shouldn't be.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    The reason to have a counterintelligence agency (which is the role the FBI has in the intelligence community) also be a law enforcement agency is somewhat obvious; domestic law enforcement, at least in that domain, is essential to counterintelligence. (I suppose there is an argument that the counterintelligence agency shouldn't be a broad spectrum law enforcement agency, but I actually think the dangers of an isolated, insular, counterintelligence agency and the kind of culture it would naturally breed would be a bigger problem.
jstarfish 3y ago
Careful, that logic cuts both ways-- you're inadvertently arguing that 702 isn't really doing much of anything. So there's no harm in continuing it, right? It's about Intelligence, not Evidence. Intelligence (like anonymous tips) is what you use to find the Evidence, which is what you reference in the affidavit. Much Intelligence is speculative and/or bullshit and wastes everybody's time. Publishing Intelligence tips off associates of the adversary and betrays what you know and what your capabilities are, and possibly who you learned it from.
- hypothesis 3y ago
  > you're inadvertently arguing that 702 isn't really doing much of anything. So there's no harm in continuing it, right? One would assume that a useless programs should be discontinued, simply because it’s not free to continue them.