6 ms·

Counter-example: Soldier of Fortune is broken on modern windows because of a misapplied compatibility hack. Rename the binary and it works with no problems. Th

Counter-example: Soldier of Fortune is broken on modern windows because of a misapplied compatibility hack. Rename the binary and it works with no problems. This is an awful way to implement backwards compatibility. Opaque and ad-hoc. They have been using similar toolset to break competitors applications. The choice of what old version of windows to run the program on is typically to try them one by one. Linux is no better with no stable ABI. Mac is a mixed bag of excellent Rosetta and breaking apps for no reason. Who did it better? FreeBSD? Some extinct “grown-up” OS like VMS?

belltaco 3y ago
> They have been using similar toolset to break competitors applications Source(s) ?
- failuser 3y ago
  This, for example. And they got caught. How many times they did not? https://www.theregister.com/1999/11/05/how_ms_played_the_incompatibility/ https://www.theregister.com/1999/11/05/how_ms_played_the_inc...
  - lsaferite 3y ago
    Your evidence is an article from 24 years ago about behavior that happened 32 year ago? And it's not even about them breaking competitors applications, it's about them refusing to run on a competing OS (in a bit of a sleezy way). Do you have more evidence of your claimed behavior? I dislike MSFT, a lot, but that's a _very_ big claim and needs to be backed up with evidence.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      Plus, let's be real, the Register is basically the tech equivalent of the Daily Mail. Often amusing, occasionally occurate.
      - failuser 3y ago
        Sure, but the DR DOS case is well known. Is ZDnet better? It also lists other cases related to efforts to destroy Novell. https://www.zdnet.com/article/caldera-unlocks-microsoft-evidence/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/caldera-unlocks-microsoft-evid...
    - failuser 3y ago
      My claim is that Microsoft operating system was silently detecting competitors software and changing behavior to break compatibility. That is proven. The war on WordPerfect was equally shady. Did Microsoft clean its act at some point and stopped doing so? They force Edge at every opportunity, so even the behavior that almost got them forcefully partitioned is back. I don’t think we have caught them outright sabotaging e.g. Chrome aside from the default browser shenanigans, but who would bother to check unless it’s a repeatable crash? Aside from Chrome what app do they even have a need to sabotage? Steam?
      - belltaco 3y ago
        > My claim is that Microsoft operating system was silently detecting competitors software and changing behavior to break compatibility. That is proven That's a false claim. That code was in a beta and never shipped. You're just spreading FUD..
        xen0 3y ago
        The code was shipped, just disabled.
Tijdreiziger 3y ago
> Mac is a mixed bag of excellent Rosetta and breaking apps for no reason. They will probably retire Rosetta2 in a few years, like they did with Rosetta. Apple usually seems to care about getting the bulk of applications to transition over, and the rest is just collateral damage/the devs should’ve just updated their software.
- failuser 3y ago
  Definitely. All Intel Mac apps will be abandoned. Even tiny apps like Spectacle will cause pain.
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    I've found Rectangle to be a good substitute / in-place replacement.
    - failuser 3y ago
      Thanks, it actually makes sense to switch. And Spectacle is even open source, so the amount of pain is minimal.
- duskwuff 3y ago
  > They will probably retire Rosetta2 in a few years, like they did with Rosetta. Counterpoint: The PPC-to-Intel version of Rosetta was licensed technology (QuickTransit); Apple was undoubtedly paying for it, possibly even per user, so there were financial reasons for them to get users off of it ASAP. Rosetta 2 was developed in-house by Apple, so there isn't the same hard timeline to get users to stop using it. I wouldn't expect it to survive long beyond support for running the OS on x86, though.
  - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
    Yes, just like they had valid technical reasons to kill 32-bit iOS apps. The point is that they don’t go above and beyond like Microsoft (although of course even MS has deprecated e.g. 16-bit apps).
rbanffy 3y ago
> Linux is no better with no stable ABI. I’m confused. Linus has repeatedly stated that the ABI should be stable, “we don't break user space”. There are exceptions, but any proposal that makes a breaking change to the kernel’s external symbols is very hard to push through. I don’t remember anything breaking because of a new kernel version except device drivers, which are part of the kernel anyway and should be compiled for a specific kernel version. They are not applications, so they shouldn’t rely on assumptions about the ABI. Most Linux distros offer mechanisms to compile a version-dependent interface to isolate a version-independent driver or program that messes too closely with the kernel. > Some extinct “grown-up” OS like VMS? I’d say the age of binary compatibility ended with most of those “grown-up” OSs becoming legacy. I usually test (compile and test) my C code on multiple platforms, ranging from Windows to Solaris on SPARC (emulated these days, sadly). I haven’t yet figured out a cost-effective way to test it under IBM z/OS’s USS (which makes z/OS a certified UNIX).
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > Linus has repeatedly stated that the ABI should be stable, “we don't break user space”. Linus said that the userspace API to the kernel should be stable, which it mostly is. But a GNU/Linux system contains a lot more APIs (in userspace).
- psychphysic 3y ago
  Drivers being kernel specific is really annoying
  - IronWolve 3y ago
    Major problem with android, stuck with whatever version of android due to binary blob drivers.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      The major problem is Google not enforcing updates via their contracts. Project Treble has made Android a pseudo microkernel with stable ABI for drivers. However Google has decided it is still up to OEMs to decide if driver are to be shipped or not. With no legal enforcement for accessing Google services, OEMs rather sell updated hardware.
desi_ninja 3y ago
Never expected someone would bring up the SOF issue on kodern windows. PCgamingwiki FTW.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
Apple dumped 32 bit support which sealed MacOS fate as a gaming platform.

belltaco 3y ago

> They have been using similar toolset to break competitors applications Source(s) ?

failuser 3y ago
This, for example. And they got caught. How many times they did not? https://www.theregister.com/1999/11/05/how_ms_played_the_incompatibility/ https://www.theregister.com/1999/11/05/how_ms_played_the_inc...
- lsaferite 3y ago
  Your evidence is an article from 24 years ago about behavior that happened 32 year ago? And it's not even about them breaking competitors applications, it's about them refusing to run on a competing OS (in a bit of a sleezy way). Do you have more evidence of your claimed behavior? I dislike MSFT, a lot, but that's a _very_ big claim and needs to be backed up with evidence.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Plus, let's be real, the Register is basically the tech equivalent of the Daily Mail. Often amusing, occasionally occurate.
    - failuser 3y ago
      Sure, but the DR DOS case is well known. Is ZDnet better? It also lists other cases related to efforts to destroy Novell. https://www.zdnet.com/article/caldera-unlocks-microsoft-evidence/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/caldera-unlocks-microsoft-evid...
  - failuser 3y ago
    My claim is that Microsoft operating system was silently detecting competitors software and changing behavior to break compatibility. That is proven. The war on WordPerfect was equally shady. Did Microsoft clean its act at some point and stopped doing so? They force Edge at every opportunity, so even the behavior that almost got them forcefully partitioned is back. I don’t think we have caught them outright sabotaging e.g. Chrome aside from the default browser shenanigans, but who would bother to check unless it’s a repeatable crash? Aside from Chrome what app do they even have a need to sabotage? Steam?
    - belltaco 3y ago
      > My claim is that Microsoft operating system was silently detecting competitors software and changing behavior to break compatibility. That is proven That's a false claim. That code was in a beta and never shipped. You're just spreading FUD..
      - xen0 3y ago
        The code was shipped, just disabled.

Tijdreiziger 3y ago

> Mac is a mixed bag of excellent Rosetta and breaking apps for no reason. They will probably retire Rosetta2 in a few years, like they did with Rosetta. Apple usually seems to care about getting the bulk of applications to transition over, and the rest is just collateral damage/the devs should’ve just updated their software.

failuser 3y ago
Definitely. All Intel Mac apps will be abandoned. Even tiny apps like Spectacle will cause pain.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  I've found Rectangle to be a good substitute / in-place replacement.
  - failuser 3y ago
    Thanks, it actually makes sense to switch. And Spectacle is even open source, so the amount of pain is minimal.
duskwuff 3y ago
> They will probably retire Rosetta2 in a few years, like they did with Rosetta. Counterpoint: The PPC-to-Intel version of Rosetta was licensed technology (QuickTransit); Apple was undoubtedly paying for it, possibly even per user, so there were financial reasons for them to get users off of it ASAP. Rosetta 2 was developed in-house by Apple, so there isn't the same hard timeline to get users to stop using it. I wouldn't expect it to survive long beyond support for running the OS on x86, though.
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  Yes, just like they had valid technical reasons to kill 32-bit iOS apps. The point is that they don’t go above and beyond like Microsoft (although of course even MS has deprecated e.g. 16-bit apps).

rbanffy 3y ago

> Linux is no better with no stable ABI. I’m confused. Linus has repeatedly stated that the ABI should be stable, “we don't break user space”. There are exceptions, but any proposal that makes a breaking change to the kernel’s external symbols is very hard to push through. I don’t remember anything breaking because of a new kernel version except device drivers, which are part of the kernel anyway and should be compiled for a specific kernel version. They are not applications, so they shouldn’t rely on assumptions about the ABI. Most Linux distros offer mechanisms to compile a version-dependent interface to isolate a version-independent driver or program that messes too closely with the kernel. > Some extinct “grown-up” OS like VMS? I’d say the age of binary compatibility ended with most of those “grown-up” OSs becoming legacy. I usually test (compile and test) my C code on multiple platforms, ranging from Windows to Solaris on SPARC (emulated these days, sadly). I haven’t yet figured out a cost-effective way to test it under IBM z/OS’s USS (which makes z/OS a certified UNIX).

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> Linus has repeatedly stated that the ABI should be stable, “we don't break user space”. Linus said that the userspace API to the kernel should be stable, which it mostly is. But a GNU/Linux system contains a lot more APIs (in userspace).
psychphysic 3y ago
Drivers being kernel specific is really annoying
- IronWolve 3y ago
  Major problem with android, stuck with whatever version of android due to binary blob drivers.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    The major problem is Google not enforcing updates via their contracts. Project Treble has made Android a pseudo microkernel with stable ABI for drivers. However Google has decided it is still up to OEMs to decide if driver are to be shipped or not. With no legal enforcement for accessing Google services, OEMs rather sell updated hardware.

desi_ninja 3y ago

Never expected someone would bring up the SOF issue on kodern windows. PCgamingwiki FTW.

WeylandYutani 3y ago

Apple dumped 32 bit support which sealed MacOS fate as a gaming platform.