6 ms·

Hmm. I think I've primarily experienced the really dark side of guess culture, so I appreciate your framing of it as a desire for understanding when it's in a h

by smeej 3y ago

Hmm. I think I've primarily experienced the really dark side of guess culture, so I appreciate your framing of it as a desire for understanding when it's in a healthy context. I've experienced it in the contexts of narcissism and borderline personality, where the underlying thought is, "I am so obviously the center of the world that anyone with half a brain who's paying a whit of attention should to intuit my needs without my having to speak a word. If I have to speak, you have already failed." And anyone who failed was punished, sometimes intensely. Ask culture, for me in that context, became about being able to exist as a separate person and express a boundary. I'd much rather put the cards on the table, find out we want completely different, even opposed things, and work from there, than deal with the power imbalance of one person's assumption that anyone who isn't reading their mind is an idiot. It seems the virtue, as most of the time, is in the mean.

MyneOutside 3y ago
This and when that person is a manager, yikes
throwanem 3y ago
What you're describing is abusive behavior, which is something I would hesitate very strongly to characterize as part of any cultural norm.
- epylar 3y ago
  I can think of several examples. Verbal abuse, childhood bullying, body shaming, cyberbullying, workplace harassment are all abusive and normal and accepted in many cultures.
- __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
  Why is that? Don't you think that abuse can become a cultural norm? I don't think we'd have ever come up with money if abuse weren't a common cultural norm. It's pretty much a proxy for "or I'll have my thugs hurt you".
  - throwanem 3y ago
    Better put, I'd say that I would hesitate to characterize a cultural preference for either directness or indirectness as akin to the kind of abuse a narcissist deals out to everyone around them. The argument is easy to construct in either direction, but in no case adds anything of value to the conversation. Too, claiming that abuse is "just a cultural thing" offers both abusers a convenient excuse for their actions, and everyone who isn't abusive but does share traits of whichever culture an undue indictment.
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  It can be more moderate than that. "what is wrong honey?". "Nothing, I'm fine". Which can either mean, no really I'm fine, or if you don't know, you obviously don't care about me, or you know exactly what is wrong and don't pretend otherwise. I've been both parties in that conversation, and over time I have learned that ask culture works better between close friends and family. That doesn't mean I'd consider it abusive though, just a non optimal communication strategy.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    As a product of Southern American culture, I would note that "guess" culture as described here - specifically, the preference for indirectness and inference - is always something that exists primarily in and near interaction among strangers. It doesn't always disappear entirely in familiar relationships, but does abate significantly in favor of being more direct. (Of course, this in itself increases the chance of cultural mismatches causing conflict, as what's ordinary for someone from an "ask" culture can easily read as an insulting assumption of excess familiarity for someone raised with "guess".) That said, it is important to keep in mind that what's here under discussion is a broad and fairly imprecise description of how varying acculturation can affect interpersonal relationships mostly among people who don't know one another all that well. In that context it's useful; to try to generalize it to every human interaction is not.
    - throwanem 3y ago
      This also reminds me of the distinction drawn between "honor" and "dignity" cultures, as eg in [1]; I'd be interested to see how the "ask" vs. "guess" distinction maps, especially as antebellum Southern and prewar Japanese cultures both fall as strongly on the "honor" side as their modern successors fall on the "guess" side. [1] https://alexandria.ucsb.edu/lib/ark:/48907/f37d2s7h#:~:text=Honor%20cultures%20place%20importance%20on,the%20social%20regard%20of%20others https://alexandria.ucsb.edu/lib/ark:/48907/f37d2s7h#:~:text=....
  - hosh 3y ago
    If there is one thing I learned, it is that when it comes to life partners and family where the stakes are conmingled, for the really important stuff, it is better to be open and direct. So I think one of the hidden dimensions here are — are you guessing because you are trying to consider the other person, or are you guessing because there is vulnerability to exposing what you really feel?
- DirkH 3y ago
  I guarantee you that abusive cultural norms exist and many poor individuals stuck in cultures with abusive norms wish they were living in a different culture.
- smeej 3y ago
  The list of things I grew up thinking were normal that I later found out were pathological or abusive is as long as my arm, so I'd have to agree with you. That's why I'm grateful that the commenter I replied to helped me see the healthier side of this trait!
flatline 3y ago
I have lived this too. Likewise ask culture can only be healthy if there is not a power imbalance: is the asked party really free to say no? The title is catchy but I’m not sure how useful this dichotomy really is.
- ativzzz 3y ago
  You can also be more empathetic with ask culture and soften or make the request more obvious to say no to. Instead of saying "can you do x" you can say "i know you're busy so no pressure whatsoever but if you're available can you do me out with x? feel free to say no my feelings won't be hurt" Yea it's a lot more words but the general gist is you ask with an additional explicit "out" for the other person so they can say no using your pre-provided excuse instead of them having to come up with one. I've found this over communication can be useful for bridging the gap sometimes
  - reddit_clone 3y ago
    As a (suffering) guesser myself, when I have to ask something I always phrase it like 'would you be interested in doing this?' so that they can say 'no' without stress. Instead of asking 'Would you do this for me? etc.' which I know would cause a mild-natured guesser stress.
- reddit_clone 3y ago
  It is also true that for some (many?) people it is very hard to say 'No'. I don't know any psychological/technical name for this but it is simply true and it is in their nature. When asked directly, they will give in even if they don't like doing what is being asked. 'Asking' in these cases is actually exploitation (if done with prior knowledge).
  - TylerE 3y ago
    People Pleaser
    - reddit_clone 3y ago
Tijdreiziger 3y ago
> […] one person's assumption that anyone who isn't reading their mind is an idiot. Ah, I see you’ve met my dad.
mannykannot 3y ago
In this case, the unreasonable person does not understand the culture he is embedded in, and would not understand an 'ask' culture either, where refusal to accede to his wants is regarded as reasonable. The difference between normal and pathological behavior in either culture lies in whether people treat others in the same way they would like to be treated themselves.
platz 3y ago
I expect you incorporate aspects of "guess" culture without even realizing it. For example, Is it okay if I bang your wife/gf? If you think that's a rude question, why? All I'v done is Ask.
- smeej 3y ago
  I don't think I understand your example, but that may come from having had more than my share of polyamorous friends. By default, I would take your request at face value and have no trouble saying, "No, we're monogamous, but I can't very well blame you for wanting to!"
  - platz 3y ago
    very well, but what percentage of the population do you think would consider that rude. Of course, the nut of the question is whether its ever possible to be rude with a question. If it's possible to be rude with a statement, I don't really see the difference between questions and statements, at the higest level, though
    - Galacta7 3y ago
      Thinking about it, it seems questions generally allow for some flexibility of interpretation reducing potential cause for offense, where statements allow far less latitude. The problem is that some questions require foundational understandings that may be offensive, or can really only be understood with malintent. "When did you stop beating your wife?" comes to mind. The question doesn't even allow for the possibility that you don't beat your wife. Similarly, "Can I sleep with your wife" implies that the asker thinks it's a possibility worth inquiring about. So I basically agree with you on a practical level -- most people would not respond well to the underlying assumption. The question is a veiled statement ("I think you might be open to letting me sleep with your wife, so here I am asking"). In that sense, the question and the statement aren't very different, as you noted.
    - smeej 3y ago
      Unless I have other context to assume ill will, I've fought for years to train myself not to assume it. Whenever I can, I try to interpret something in a light where the other person means no offense. Certainly sometimes I'm wrong. Most people are assholes sometimes (myself included), and some people are assholes most of the time. But I've found my conversations go best when I try not to assume assholery about someone for as long as I possibly can. In this case, assuming someone's worldview doesn't take monogamy for granted, and that they've also noticed how sexy my partner is, is how I avoid being offended, even if they frame the request in a somewhat crass way.
Aerbil313 3y ago
> "I am so obviously the center of the world that ... If I have to speak, you have already failed." IME this person is always a women dominating her family. Idk why.
- smeej 3y ago
  It was my dad in my house by miles, but my grandma was like that to my mother, so I'm pretty sure that swings both ways.

by smeej 3y ago

MyneOutside 3y ago

This and when that person is a manager, yikes

throwanem 3y ago

What you're describing is abusive behavior, which is something I would hesitate very strongly to characterize as part of any cultural norm.

epylar 3y ago
I can think of several examples. Verbal abuse, childhood bullying, body shaming, cyberbullying, workplace harassment are all abusive and normal and accepted in many cultures.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
Why is that? Don't you think that abuse can become a cultural norm? I don't think we'd have ever come up with money if abuse weren't a common cultural norm. It's pretty much a proxy for "or I'll have my thugs hurt you".
- throwanem 3y ago
  Better put, I'd say that I would hesitate to characterize a cultural preference for either directness or indirectness as akin to the kind of abuse a narcissist deals out to everyone around them. The argument is easy to construct in either direction, but in no case adds anything of value to the conversation. Too, claiming that abuse is "just a cultural thing" offers both abusers a convenient excuse for their actions, and everyone who isn't abusive but does share traits of whichever culture an undue indictment.
galangalalgol 3y ago
It can be more moderate than that. "what is wrong honey?". "Nothing, I'm fine". Which can either mean, no really I'm fine, or if you don't know, you obviously don't care about me, or you know exactly what is wrong and don't pretend otherwise. I've been both parties in that conversation, and over time I have learned that ask culture works better between close friends and family. That doesn't mean I'd consider it abusive though, just a non optimal communication strategy.
- throwanem 3y ago
  As a product of Southern American culture, I would note that "guess" culture as described here - specifically, the preference for indirectness and inference - is always something that exists primarily in and near interaction among strangers. It doesn't always disappear entirely in familiar relationships, but does abate significantly in favor of being more direct. (Of course, this in itself increases the chance of cultural mismatches causing conflict, as what's ordinary for someone from an "ask" culture can easily read as an insulting assumption of excess familiarity for someone raised with "guess".) That said, it is important to keep in mind that what's here under discussion is a broad and fairly imprecise description of how varying acculturation can affect interpersonal relationships mostly among people who don't know one another all that well. In that context it's useful; to try to generalize it to every human interaction is not.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    This also reminds me of the distinction drawn between "honor" and "dignity" cultures, as eg in [1]; I'd be interested to see how the "ask" vs. "guess" distinction maps, especially as antebellum Southern and prewar Japanese cultures both fall as strongly on the "honor" side as their modern successors fall on the "guess" side. [1] https://alexandria.ucsb.edu/lib/ark:/48907/f37d2s7h#:~:text=Honor%20cultures%20place%20importance%20on,the%20social%20regard%20of%20others https://alexandria.ucsb.edu/lib/ark:/48907/f37d2s7h#:~:text=....
- hosh 3y ago
  If there is one thing I learned, it is that when it comes to life partners and family where the stakes are conmingled, for the really important stuff, it is better to be open and direct. So I think one of the hidden dimensions here are — are you guessing because you are trying to consider the other person, or are you guessing because there is vulnerability to exposing what you really feel?
DirkH 3y ago
I guarantee you that abusive cultural norms exist and many poor individuals stuck in cultures with abusive norms wish they were living in a different culture.
smeej 3y ago
The list of things I grew up thinking were normal that I later found out were pathological or abusive is as long as my arm, so I'd have to agree with you. That's why I'm grateful that the commenter I replied to helped me see the healthier side of this trait!

flatline 3y ago

I have lived this too. Likewise ask culture can only be healthy if there is not a power imbalance: is the asked party really free to say no? The title is catchy but I’m not sure how useful this dichotomy really is.

ativzzz 3y ago
You can also be more empathetic with ask culture and soften or make the request more obvious to say no to. Instead of saying "can you do x" you can say "i know you're busy so no pressure whatsoever but if you're available can you do me out with x? feel free to say no my feelings won't be hurt" Yea it's a lot more words but the general gist is you ask with an additional explicit "out" for the other person so they can say no using your pre-provided excuse instead of them having to come up with one. I've found this over communication can be useful for bridging the gap sometimes
- reddit_clone 3y ago
  As a (suffering) guesser myself, when I have to ask something I always phrase it like 'would you be interested in doing this?' so that they can say 'no' without stress. Instead of asking 'Would you do this for me? etc.' which I know would cause a mild-natured guesser stress.
reddit_clone 3y ago
It is also true that for some (many?) people it is very hard to say 'No'. I don't know any psychological/technical name for this but it is simply true and it is in their nature. When asked directly, they will give in even if they don't like doing what is being asked. 'Asking' in these cases is actually exploitation (if done with prior knowledge).
- TylerE 3y ago
  People Pleaser
  - reddit_clone 3y ago

Tijdreiziger 3y ago

> […] one person's assumption that anyone who isn't reading their mind is an idiot. Ah, I see you’ve met my dad.

mannykannot 3y ago

In this case, the unreasonable person does not understand the culture he is embedded in, and would not understand an 'ask' culture either, where refusal to accede to his wants is regarded as reasonable. The difference between normal and pathological behavior in either culture lies in whether people treat others in the same way they would like to be treated themselves.

platz 3y ago

I expect you incorporate aspects of "guess" culture without even realizing it. For example, Is it okay if I bang your wife/gf? If you think that's a rude question, why? All I'v done is Ask.

smeej 3y ago
I don't think I understand your example, but that may come from having had more than my share of polyamorous friends. By default, I would take your request at face value and have no trouble saying, "No, we're monogamous, but I can't very well blame you for wanting to!"
- platz 3y ago
  very well, but what percentage of the population do you think would consider that rude. Of course, the nut of the question is whether its ever possible to be rude with a question. If it's possible to be rude with a statement, I don't really see the difference between questions and statements, at the higest level, though
  - Galacta7 3y ago
    Thinking about it, it seems questions generally allow for some flexibility of interpretation reducing potential cause for offense, where statements allow far less latitude. The problem is that some questions require foundational understandings that may be offensive, or can really only be understood with malintent. "When did you stop beating your wife?" comes to mind. The question doesn't even allow for the possibility that you don't beat your wife. Similarly, "Can I sleep with your wife" implies that the asker thinks it's a possibility worth inquiring about. So I basically agree with you on a practical level -- most people would not respond well to the underlying assumption. The question is a veiled statement ("I think you might be open to letting me sleep with your wife, so here I am asking"). In that sense, the question and the statement aren't very different, as you noted.
  - smeej 3y ago
    Unless I have other context to assume ill will, I've fought for years to train myself not to assume it. Whenever I can, I try to interpret something in a light where the other person means no offense. Certainly sometimes I'm wrong. Most people are assholes sometimes (myself included), and some people are assholes most of the time. But I've found my conversations go best when I try not to assume assholery about someone for as long as I possibly can. In this case, assuming someone's worldview doesn't take monogamy for granted, and that they've also noticed how sexy my partner is, is how I avoid being offended, even if they frame the request in a somewhat crass way.

Aerbil313 3y ago

> "I am so obviously the center of the world that ... If I have to speak, you have already failed." IME this person is always a women dominating her family. Idk why.

smeej 3y ago
It was my dad in my house by miles, but my grandma was like that to my mother, so I'm pretty sure that swings both ways.