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"It’s rude to put someone in a position where they have to say no to you" I feel this in my bones. When I was a kid my dad went off on me after we visited some

• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• chromoblob 3y ago
  And miss out a lot...
  • jzb 3y ago
    I can honestly say I don't regret a policy of not asking people for things in general. If somebody wants me to have some of their cake, or whatever, then I'm usually happy to accept. But I can't think of a time when I am like "gee, I missed out by not asking for that thing."
    • ddbb33 3y ago
      The cake could also be asking for a raise, or a discount, really any other any opportunity that’s not as low-stakes as an item of food
• sneak 3y ago
  All good and meaningful relationships involve give and take, and sometimes saying no, so this reduces to "it's rude to have close human relationships with people" (because close human relationships necessarily involve sometimes saying no). There is an argument that such a worldview is slightly pathological.
  • samus 3y ago
    There are ways around that, by phrasing questions in a different way so the other person does not have to respond with a hard "no". Yes, this requires prior acquaintance with that communication culture, and integration by relative outsiders can be difficult.
    • wrboyce 3y ago
      Sorry but this is bullshit and putting the onus on the wrong person. “No” is a complete sentence and I don’t see the problem with using it, if you do (after say, I’ve asked for you a slice of cake) but can’t think of another phrasing (“I’m afraid not”, “maybe after you dinner”, “ask your father”; there are endless possibilities - especially when dealing with children) then the issue is your vocabulary, and not my failure to bend over backwards phrasing the question so do you don’t have to say the, apparently dreaded, word “no”.
      • samus 3y ago
        I guess that is your background from a more "ask"-like culture speaking, where things are put out more explicitly. Meanwhile "guess"-like cultures value "getting along" more highly and try to avoid the hard "no". Yes, this often stems from different underlying value systems that we might perceive as toxic.
  • jzb 3y ago
    As I said upthread - lots of caveats and it's context dependent. For one thing, this usually assumed there was not a "close human relationship" but social situations where you aren't that close. It has to be OK to say no. In many scenarios or cultures it is considered rude to say no. So if you're not able to gracefully say no without being considered rude, it's correspondingly rude to ask because you're basically saying "do this for me or else you're rude." It's not an ask at that point, it's a demand. If I'm the asshole if I say no, then I don't want to be asked the question in the first place.
• wccrawford 3y ago
  While I was studying Japanese, I learned that they go out of their way to make it so the other person doesn't have to refuse with a "no". For instance, they'll ask, "Do you not have X?" instead of "Do you have X?" The person can answer "Yes, we don't have it" or "It's over here". I actually made this mistake, asking for a product directly instead of negatively, when I was in Tokyo. The clerk took me to the aisle and said, "If we had it, it'd be here." And there was no space for it. Took me a couple times to realize what had happened.
  • sircastor 3y ago
    There may be an obvious language barrier here, but the coupling of a positive with a negative response feels very odd to me in English. I'm reminded of the old song (it was used for an advertising jingle for a product or company I can't remember) "Yes, we have no bananas!" Adjacently, I really dislike the courtroom phrasing "Isn't it true?" that is sometimes depicted in legal dramas.
    • reddit_clone 3y ago
      Indeed. >"Do you not have X?" In my head it sounds belligerent and accusatory. While the other form sounds polite. This negative phrasing to induce a positive response, may be a Japan only thing?
      • galaxyLogic 3y ago
        It's interesting, it somehow means you are agreeing with them if they don't have it, so they don't have to feel so bad about not having it.
        • _g0wg 3y ago
          I'm from Appalachia and we have the same thing, and yeah at least for us it's like you're agreeing with them that they don't have it. "Do you not have bananas?" is like "is it true that there are no bananas?". Then if there are bananas, the host can gleefully surprise you with them and feel like they solved a problem for you. This is only if it's said in a constantly upwardly-shifting tone, though. It can be said another way, same words different tone, which sounds more like "how perplexing, there's no bananas, let me just make sure I didn't miss them because I thought they should be here". The host usually backs their answer up with an explanation of why there are no bananas. A third form exists where it does sound accusatory. Like "you should have bananas you piece of crap". Usually said in a huffy puffy I-dont-have-time-for-this tone.
• retrac 3y ago
  That may work relatively well with consumables like food. But it extends in many directions. I have fans and a space heater and extra blankets and etc. All of them are available for a houseguest to use. Many of them are stored in the guest room. I've had "guess culture" people stay over. Really, in my mind they don't even need to ask. They're already welcome to take an extra blanket. But they won't even ask, and they certainly wouldn't presume. They are indeed waiting on me to say "oh, if you're warm the fan can be plugged in, and there's some extra blankets in the closet if you want". Though in my mind, I don't need to say that. And if I don't say it they may go very uncomfortable. I'm most used to giving such reassurances to children, and to give them to adults seems a little infantilizing. But that's my relatively "ask culture" background in action, probably.
  • linuxdude314 3y ago
    Are they supposed to just know the blankets are in your closet?
    • dack 3y ago
      I think someone could say they are cold and ask for more blankets, and the owner could say they don't have any more blankets
    • dahfizz 3y ago
      They're supposed to ask
  • jzb 3y ago
    Well, exactly - it's about things like consumables where you're asking to take something. For example, "may I have a glass of water?" would have been fine with my dad. (And it was drummed into me it's rude not to offer somebody at least a glass of water when they're in your house!) Basic comfort items where you're not using up someone's limited resources == no problem.
  • themodelplumber 3y ago
    That's a great example. Unfortunately it's also not super helpful to dichotomize the difference, because most people are a mix of both in different ways. For example, under extreme stress or illness, a lot of "ask" people will turn into "guess what I want or life hates me" people. And it's not exactly unheard of for guessers to turn into power-trippers under stress and become over-direct when just a little bit of directness is a better idea. Sometimes guessers even use this entire us-them concept as a way to subtly preach to askers, but really it's a two-way street. If you've ever lived or worked under an unethical or abusive guesser, you may have developed a very strong sense of the hypocrisy of the "askers are blunt and mean" comparison which often comes out in discussions with guessers. Fortunately though there is a lot of nuance to work with on both sides in most cases. (And again, dichotomizing this is not great in so many ways)
• voxl 3y ago
  I suppose different people will have different tastes, but I will never agree that this is rude and that you should not ask. You should not be upset when declined, but that is another matter.
  • jzb 3y ago
    The problem is that people do get upset. Basically, you're forcing someone else to be the asshole by saying no or justify why they don't want to share or do something. Rudeness is, of course, a subjective thing. Some people think it's rude to wear shoes indoors, some people think it's rude to make specific gestures that are either OK or meaningless to me. My wife is an asker. It's a definite challenge at times...
    • galaxyLogic 3y ago
      The rude thing is to not offer any reward in return for you, if you agree to their request. It's just saying they want to take advantage of you if you fall for it. Making such a request means that they are happy to take advantage of you as long as you let them. Is that unethical? Think of it this way: You own a truly valuable stamp but you don't know its value. Then somebody who knows its value offers to exchange it for their stamp of much lesser value, without telling you what they know about its value. It may not be unethical, businesses are based on such behavior. Buy low and sell high to make a profit. But when you see such behavior by your friends or neighbors or colleagues, be aware. They are the kind of people who are happy to take advantage of you.
      • Galacta7 3y ago
        Hmm, I see a problem with this analogy in that the person selling the stamp is at an unfair disadvantage due to that information asymmetry. It's actually unethical and sometimes even illegal to do this in the stock market, especially if the knowledge wasn't publicly available. I think askers sometimes feel put off by guessers, because you can't inherently know what the other person thinks is a fair request -- unless you're in a high context environment (which most askers won't be as familiar with). So from their perspective, guessers are doing a bit of insider trading ... only they know what's of value to them. It's frustrating from the askers POV because the counterparty seems less than transparent about their true intentions. Of course, from the other side of the coin, the asker is ignoring a million cues that are obvious to the guesser but meaningless to the asker who doesn't even know to notice them.
• gopher_space 3y ago
  My grandmother said you’d offer food to guests because you knew they were hungry and they’d refuse because they knew you didn’t have enough for yourself. If you actually had enough food for a meal you needed to convince your houseguest.
  • seng 3y ago
    That's the reason, I avoid going to relatives home as guests. They would compel and force me to eat something that I don't prefer. I won't be able to politely decline them as I'm from guess culture.
    • satvikpendem 3y ago
      Why wouldn't you be able to decline them? I have relatives like that too whose insistence is seen as politeness but even they will back off after some time, especially if (but it's not needed for you to) explain why you decline.
• tempestn 3y ago
  And a polite way to do this is to suggest the thing you want, rather than directly asking for it. You could complement the cake - oh, that looks delicious; what's the occasion? Or, "I'm moving next weekend - looking forward to the new place, but it's going to be a big job!" It is uncomfortable being asked something that you have to say no to, but that doesn't mean we have to just hope people will guess our needs unassisted.
  • tomjakubowski 3y ago
    In "guess culture" they can't offer you help unless they're certain you won't decline the offer. So they'd have to figure out first if you're hiring movers, and if not ascertain whether you already have enough friends helping you, and if not _then_ they'd offer to help you. I agree with the other commenters who say that guess culture is exhausting.
    • tempestn 3y ago
      Maybe that's how it works somewhere, but it's hard for me to imagine. It can definitely be an imposition to _ask_ someone directly for help moving, as indeed they might feel obligated to agree. But it seems much less likely in a real-world context that offering someone your help would oblige them to accept. It's perfectly reasonable to explain that you have it worked out already, so you appreciate the offer but it's not necessary. "Guess culture" could certainly be exhausting if you over-complicate it like that, but it's not necessary.
    • jzb 3y ago
      That’s not the case. Offering help is just fine.
• njharman 3y ago
  I'm not spending game night constantly asking all my guests all the possible things (water, caffeine, booze, food, bathroom, chair, cushion, warmer, colder, more light, less light, music, different music, louder music, quieter music, pet my dog, etc, etc, fucking etc). If you want something, YOU ask for it, which is polite.
  • jasondigitized 3y ago
    But.....if you have an incredibly expensive or special, unopened bottle of wine sitting off in a corner and your guest asks if he can open it.....that is grounds to be excommunicated off the earth. Don't do that, it's incredibly tacky, reeks of entitlement and puts your host in a awkward position.
    • syradar 3y ago
      “No, it’s a special bottle“ The guest asked and got an answer. Is it tacky and reeks of entitlement, Yes, it does not haves to become awkward
• williamdclt 3y ago
  At the end of the day, if you’re firmly on either end of the spectrum it comes down to the same thing: you’re putting all responsibility of the social interaction on the other person. Because your position is fixed and theirs is (possibly) not, you’re making it their fault if the communication style doesn’t work. It leads to much frustration on both sides. In your example, if you have a fixed position of « Let people offer things, don't ask », you’re putting all responsibility on the other person: they have to adapt to your style or they’ll be the bad guy. Even though the other end of the spectrum (« express your desires, don’t make people guess ») is just as self-consistent and valid. Camping at either end of the spectrum is putting yourself as a victim, it’s using the other person’s brain rather than your own to make the interaction pleasant. As in most things: extremes and inflexibility don’t work with the subtleties of reality
  • zestyping 3y ago
    Wonderfully stated.
• trailingComma 3y ago
  It's rude to expect other people to be able guess what you want. If you want something, ask me. I don't have crippling confidence issues so saying no is not a problem for me.
• ranting-moth 3y ago
  I didn't understand the article until I read your comment! I'd never point at someone's cake in someone's house and ask for a slice. Except for a really good friend, but I'd simply point to his cake and tell him I'm going to eat it. He would either say yes or tell me why I couldn't and neither of us would take offence either way. I've learnt to shoot down inappropriate ask request right away. Lending you money? No, I don't lent out money. Life pro tip: never tell people you have money.
• deleted 3y ago
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• gpgn 3y ago
  How does that work in dating? If you are afraid of making people uncomfortable by asking them out, escalating things and putting them in situations where they have to say no to you, you may just end up being single for life.
  • reg_dunlop 3y ago
    Not at all related to dating, but this makes me think of the Curb Your Enthusiasm scene where Larry David's mother died while he was in New York on vacation and his father didn't want to "inconvenience" Larry out of respect for her dying wishes: "don't bother Larry". Great scene and tangentially related to your premise.
  • jzb 3y ago
    Clearly that isn’t the case, given that ask culture has perpetuated itself. Something like this: “I was thinking of seeing New Movie” “Oh, I’ve been wanting to see that” “I’m going Friday after work. You could join me if that sounds good.” “I’d like that!” It’s not hard. You establish if someone is open to a date and it’s okay to ask if you’re getting the encouragement to do so. If you’re not, you drop it and save both parties the awkwardness of saying no.
• tenebrisalietum 3y ago
  You can set the stage to be offered, by asking about something adjacent to what you want. Compliments also help. "This is a beautiful cake. What's it for? Is there a celebration?" If you are not offered a slice after that, assume you can't have one.
• barfingclouds 3y ago
  Ugh hard disagree. You can say the word no, it’s fine.